Have we been wrong in our understanding of PAR this whole time??

[BeanAnimal]

Ok, but then wouldn’t the brown corals in these shallow waters be displaying these “protective colors” if their health was truly at risk?

You are wholly missing the point as well as conflating two different things. To that end, the study I mentioned (again I can't even remember who's it was) was specific to certain corals and certain colors. It was a general point in the larger picture of "the sun being perfect", etc. Go search RC, there are numerous threads from over a decade ago about this very thing.

I see above people somewhat explaining... I (quite frankly) don't have the desire or energy to type or rehash this stuff. It is pointless.

 

[djf91]

You are wholly missing the point as well as conflating two different things. To that end, the study I mentioned (again I can't even remember who's it was) was specific to certain corals and certain colors. It was a general point in the larger picture of "the sun being perfect", etc. Go search RC, there are numerous threads from over a decade ago about this very thing.

I see above people somewhat explaining... I (quite frankly) don't have the desire or energy to type or rehash this stuff. It is pointless.

Haha alright, whatever you say.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Haha alright, whatever you say.

It is not "whatever I say". You misunderstood my point and conflated two different points. I tried to explain and you further conflated.

I just have zero desire to argue and really have no interest in developing a pointless conversation on this subject. Well intentioned or not it (the conversation, from all parties, myself included) will be mostly based on pontification and loose application of fact and a lot of wild opinion. I don't have the answers, nor do I care to find them and they certainly will not be unveiled here. This very conversation takes place Ad infinitum and at some point will just get ugly as it moves (as it always does) from simple statement of fact to theorized application and effect of those facts. Soon to come will be the rabid opinion and people will take sides. The nice conversation that several of us are/were having will get lost in the rhetoric.... and in the end no new truth will be learned and the conversation will pause until repeated a week from now.

Have a wonderful evening.

 

[djf91]

It is not "whatever I say". You misunderstood my point and conflated two different points. I tried to explain and you further conflated.

I just have zero desire to argue and really have no interest in developing a pointless conversation on this subject. Well intentioned or not it (the conversation, from all parties, myself included) will be mostly based on pontification and loose application of fact and a lot of wild opinion. I don't have the answers, nor do I care to find them and they certainly will not be unveiled here. This very conversation takes place Ad infinitum and at some point will just get ugly as it moves (as it always does) from simple statement of fact to theorized application and effect of those facts. Soon to come will be the rabid opinion and people will take sides. The nice conversation that several of us are/were having will get lost in the rhetoric.... and in the end no new truth will be learned and the conversation will pause until repeated a week from now.

Have a wonderful evening.

I am not conflating what you say. I’m saying your two statements contradict each other and you didn’t like it. And now long winded, defensive responses to just a few questions I asked. It seems I struck a nerve.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not conflating what you say. I’m saying your two statements contradict each other and you didn’t like it. And now long winded, defensive responses to just a few questions I asked. It seems I struck a nerve.

My statements did not contracted each other. You missed the entire point of my post and as well are conflating two wholly different things and missing the point of the post. I am not willing to try to steer you in the right direction. Coral pigmentation (tissue) and coloration (via its zoox) are two different topics and both dependent on light and other factors. Two other people offered (well worded) insight for you after my post. Maybe they will engage you. I don't care to.

 

[jda]

Brown corals do not get collected. Most collectors know what they are grabbing and they also carry around RB flashlights to check corals if they are unsure. Most of the corals collected look better under blue light than they do in our tanks in the same way that Battlecorals frags look amazing under blue LED for a while and often the colors fade.

Pinks, purples, blues and greens all show in shallow water... reds are hard but you can see certian shades of pink that you know are red under other lights. There are plenty of green and brown ones too, but it isn't like we are just lucky that the good ones make it to stores.

All that I will say about the sun is that it is the baseline. Fools want people to prove that the sun is best instead of proving that it isn't. Neither are really possible for our purposes, but you can likely get further replicating the sun than not so. To me, seems like proving that gravity exists instead of proving that it doesn't. I am under no delusion that everything is optimized for the sun and nature, but start there and work away...

Dana had a saturation article where he used a PAM Flourometer. Every expert that I have ever talked to thinks that his values are way too low - he even mentioned this a few times and the process that he used on this board. Some of the results using PAM flourometry on corals in the actual ocean can show no limits to their ability to use wavelengths - ala some terrestrial land plants. Somebody talked about this at a MACNA - if I remember, I will post it. When you cut spectrum, you also cut the ability for things to perform photosynthesis - this is true with plants too. My alma mater has a flourometer, but they would not let me rent it nor bring in corals - it was not going anywhere near water... so I cannot test any of this for myself.

 

[djf91]

My statements did not contracted each other. You missed the entire point of my post and as well are conflating two wholly different things and missing the point of the post. I am not willing to try to steer you in the right direction. Coral pigmentation (tissue) and coloration (via its zoox) are two different topics and both dependent on light and other factors. Two other people offered (well worded) insight for you after my post. Maybe they will engage you. I don't care to.

No, I understood the point you were doing your best to construct. But it was fraught with contradictions and conjecture. And then you became unhinged, as usual, when someone dared question your post.

 

[BeanAnimal]

but you can likely get further replicating the sun than not so....
...but start there and work away...

I don't think that is at all unreasonable and is far from an absolute.

Dana had a saturation article...

That is PAR (no pun) for the course for the entire discipline. We know more about gravity than we do coral

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, I understood the point you were doing your best to construct. But it was fraught with contradictions and conjecture. And then you became unhinged, as usual, when someone dared question your post.

Kindly, if you understood my point you would understand that my statements were not contradictory and you wouldn't be insisting on an argument. I have no desire to further the conversation. If you feel that they were contradictory, so be it.

Unhinged? I very kindly indicated (4 times now) that I don't wish to engage you in an argument. You response has been escalatory insults in attempt to goad me into an argument that isn't going to happen.

 

[Troylee]

What's your logic or reasoning behind this? I have a scientific study which used MH with colour temps of 5, 10, 15 and 20k...the 20k was the bulb that grew coral the fastest with all other variables kept as a constant. The frags used were all from the same 2 mother colonies, evenly divided between the bulbs.
That plasma delivering 500 par could be delivering the same volume of energy as a 20k at 300 par. It's something I'm trying to find, but when comparing wavelengths and energy delivered I think, could be wrong, 420nm was 1/3 higher in energy than 650nm

This is also evidence of what I'm saying, the levels of blue light energy in full spectrum will still exist. Par increases as we go from blue to full spectrum. However if par is kept at a constant then the energy is very different.

Please post such said study… and the Arthur if can please. I think carrot top wrote that haha

 

[djf91]

Brown corals do not get collected. Most collectors know what they are grabbing and they also carry around RB flashlights to check corals if they are unsure. Most of the corals collected look better under blue light than they do in our tanks in the same way that Battlecorals frags look amazing under blue LED for a while and often the colors fade.

Pinks, purples, blues and greens all show in shallow water... reds are hard but you can see certian shades of pink that you know are red under other lights. There are plenty of green and brown ones too, but it isn't like we are just lucky that the good ones make it to stores.

All that I will say about the sun is that it is the baseline. Fools want people to prove that the sun is best instead of proving that it isn't. Neither are really possible for our purposes, but you can likely get further replicating the sun than not so. To me, seems like proving that gravity exists instead of proving that it doesn't. I am under no delusion that everything is optimized for the sun and nature, but start there and work away...

Dana had a saturation article where he used a PAM Flourometer. Every expert that I have ever talked to thinks that his values are way too low - he even mentioned this a few times and the process that he used on this board. Some of the results using PAM flourometry on corals in the actual ocean can show no limits to their ability to use wavelengths - ala some terrestrial land plants. Somebody talked about this at a MACNA - if I remember, I will post it. When you cut spectrum, you also cut the ability for things to perform photosynthesis - this is true with plants too. My alma mater has a flourometer, but they would not let me rent it nor bring in corals - it was not going anywhere near water... so I cannot test any of this for myself.

Totally agree with this. There’s a reason the most densely populated areas of the reef are the first several meters. Over millions of years this biome shaped them into what they are.

 

[Troylee]

The sun is very much full spectrum, and as jda points out the par levels are absolutely incredible! I go back to my original point that if we reduced that par level to something similar to our reef tanks and compared to 20k at the same par id imagine we'd see differing growth levels.

Not true.. ask any farmer who grows corals for a living! 6500k for growth! You got some big monster ugly brown sticks then place them under 20k to color up and sell to the public! This has been the practice for many years..

 

[BeanAnimal]

Not true.. ask any farmer who grows corals for a living! 6500k for growth! You got some big monster ugly brown sticks then place them under 20k to color up and sell to the public! This has been the practice for many years..

Speaking of coloring up. @jda This is maybe 2 weeks from harvest, a week in my system... brown as can be from a well known source. Anyway, dead center between two Mitras, same "PAR" but a bit different spectrum. Will see (unscientifically) if either side responds differently or if it just stays brown forever

 

[Troylee]

Speaking of coloring up. This is maybe 2 weeks from harvest... brown as can be. Dead center between two Mitras, same "PAR" but a bit different spectrum. Will see (unscientifically) if either side responds differently or if it just stays brown forever

Those are my favorite corals to buy! I see them as Xmas presents there dirt cheap and nobody wants them so I buy them cheap! Give them time and they unwrap them selves to something beautiful! Most of the time haha! I have 3 brown colonies currently I’m waiting for the transition.

 

[Acroguy]

This is very specific to one species, but I've no doubt it this was replicated on a lot more we'd see similar results.
To clarify this study was using the same wattage bulbs, not par.

This study was done with identical par measurements for T5 (blue biased), LEP (full spectrum) and LED (blue biased). For reference, SGR is specific growth rate.

Please dont try to tell me that LED grows acropora almost 2 x faster than t5 because that is bogus. That “study” had many flaws probably.

 

[JoshO]

Please dont try to tell me that LED grows acropora almost 2 x faster than t5 because that is bogus. That “study” had many flaws probably.

Again you're not using any actual factual information to ridicule a scientific study. Look at Reefbums peninsula, grown entirely with LEDs, insanely fast growth. I think he has stated it's grown his Acropora as fast if not faster than any other method (fyi he runs 20k).
You can't claim something has flaws when you've absolutely no evidence to back what you're saying.

 

[JoshO]

Totally agree with this. There’s a reason the most densely populated areas of the reef are the first several meters. Over millions of years this biome shaped them into what they are.

I'm not disagreeing for one second than the sun is the best btw. Remember the par numbers associated with the sun at those depths, crazy high compared to what we run. Blue wavelengths will be at their maximum, but it doesn't look blue as the volumes of others are still there in abundance.
If we drop all those values equally until we hit 250 par and then run a much bluer spectrum at 250 par then I'm hypothesizing, based on the studies, the blue will do better.
I can't stress enough I'm not demonizing full spectrum, but the application of par in measuring the energy delivered as a broad statement rather than being spectrum weighted

 

[JoshO]

I did, see post 182

Please post such said study… and the Arthur if can please. I think carrot top wrote that haha

 

[Acroguy]

Again you're not using any actual factual information to ridicule a scientific study. Look at Reefbums peninsula, grown entirely with LEDs, insanely fast growth. I think he has stated it's grown his Acropora as fast if not faster than any other method (fyi he runs 20k).
You can't claim something has flaws when you've absolutely no evidence to back what you're saying.

You have also no evidence that the study was flawless ? Do you ?
Reefbum had halides before with even faster growth how about that ?

 

[Acroguy]

I did, see post 182

That is not the study we want, we want a study that uses only blue spectrum with the same PAR as a full spectrum lamp and compare them.