Have we been wrong in our understanding of PAR this whole time??

[Acroguy]

The sun is very much full spectrum, and as jda points out the par levels are absolutely incredible! I go back to my original point that if we reduced that par level to something similar to our reef tanks and compared to 20k at the same par id imagine we'd see differing growth levels.

I still disagree, but find such a test wich proves it and I’ll believe you.

 

[JoshO]

I still disagree, but find such a test wich proves it and I’ll believe you.

This is very specific to one species, but I've no doubt it this was replicated on a lot more we'd see similar results.
To clarify this study was using the same wattage bulbs, not par.

This study was done with identical par measurements for T5 (blue biased), LEP (full spectrum) and LED (blue biased). For reference, SGR is specific growth rate.

 

[jda]

I do find it ironic that Solis are one type of acropora that have suffered under heavy-blue lighting long term. They used to be a really desired coral in the hobby and they are now harder to keep and have thrive. They can be really beautiful too. The growth pattern of A. Soli are what many are after.

I always though that the first posted study was more about acclimation that long-term success.

Edit: I am always mad when people use super easy corals for their studies, like birdsnest, stylos, stags, porites, etc, but A. Soli is no joke. This is medium-hard acro for many folks that takes some skill to get and keep colonies.

 

[Lasse]

FYI I did an experiment with colours of three different coral - 1 with mainly reflecting colour, one with mainly fluorescence colours and one with a mix. First part is posted in this thread

Sincerely Lassse

 

[Miami Reef]

In my opinion, this is my favorite spectrum:

We have all the colors needed to grow and keep fluorescent and chromoproteins.

I believe in full spectrum lighting. Most of our corals are collected in shallow waters, even LPS. They get exposed to full spectrum light.

Acropora need to become exposed to strong amber light around 550nm-650nm to develop and show their chromoproteins.

A tank with just blues will be one-note. You are missing a lot of potential by leaving the other colors off the table.

Red light (not too much) around 660nm can really help with photosynthesis in corals with chlorophyll a.

 

[oreo54]

My logic is that the sun is full spectrum, and Acropora grow a couple meters deep, or most of them do.If they would like the more blue or almost only blue wavelenghts they would grow much deeper,( some do).I am a simple guy.

Coral depths.. No "judgement" as to the health, extant of the colonies.. just that they were "there".

History

Product Review: T5 Fluorescent Lamps: UV Lighting’s ‘Super Actinic,’ ‘Actinic White,’ and ‘Aquasun’ High Output T5 Lamps

This month we'll begin an examination of T5 fluorescent lamps in general and then scrutinize several lamps manufactured by UV Lighting Company.

reefs.com

Would like to see some real numbers and breakdown of the UV emitted from the UVL t12's.
"Best guess" on what I could find regarding the UVL vs ATI Actinic.
Besides the mercury spikes the only thing they seem to contain is a blue phosphor with a peak at 420nm.
Green and amber should line up.

 

[areefer01]

Be careful of "studies." They can be misleading and incorrect- they can also be very good. For example, lots of people point to some of Dana Riddle's studies using porites but when I point out that these will grow in a fuge under a 6500k Screw-In CFL even he agrees that the findings are likely just for this species. He also found that PAR in Hawaii was around 1000-1200 during peak times, but I found nearly twice that which he agreed needs reconciled.

I would recommend blending what you read with what you see from smart people who keep tanks. I would listen to people like Adam at Battlecorals if you are into acropora. Dr. Joshi with nothing to sell is good too. Tim Herman grows corals like crazy. Abe does great too. Copps is legendary. There are others.

At least they have done something compared to anecdotal evidence from hobbyist. Study be it oceanic, real, or presenting/talking at MACNA. This is by no means a dig at anyone here or elsewhere just a general observation. Not that Dana needs defending.

Also some people are just better at growing plants...

 

[JoshO]

In my opinion, this is my favorite spectrum:

We have all the colors needed to grow and keep fluorescent and chromoproteins.

I believe in full spectrum lighting. Most of our corals are collected in shallow waters, even LPS. They get exposed to full spectrum light.

Acropora need to become exposed to strong amber light around 550nm-650nm to develop and show their chromoproteins.

A tank with just blues will be one-note. You are missing a lot of potential by leaving the other colors off the table.

Red light (not too much) around 660nm can really help with photosynthesis in corals with chlorophyll a.

With regards to the part about just blues, I want to reemphasize that it's not what I'm wanting to imply with the thread. I also believe in more full spectrum lighting, 5 hours of my schedule are 12k. But I also believe in that if we wish to run fuller spectrum then we need to have higher par than say 20k so that we are fulfilling the volume of the blue end of the spectrum.

 

[jda]

If you actually read most of the studies, they mostly tell you that they are just anecdotes and observations with some metrics and a tiny bit of control. The best ones done by the best people usually indicate that they don't expect results beyond the species used in the same conditions... yet hobbyists often take them to mean more.

In the end, all that we have is anecdotes for most things besides chemistry. Some of the anecdotes are accompanied by something else whether it be a gorgeous tank over a long period of time, a tool or meter (metrics), some control or what have you. Most folks with no experience want data - it is worthless. Hobbyists that are good want to hear from better hobbyists. Some want confirmation of an idea, or worse, a purchase. The hardest anecdotes for me are when folks can do things that nobody else can where the Rich Ross tank is a good example, where he can do things at high waste product levels that nobody else does... I have come to the conclusion that he is just better than most of the rest of us.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I find it pointless to keep using "they are in shallow water with full sunlight" as the evidence that is what "they" "should" have. Sure, most of the corals that we collect are found in shallow water, and most SPS are various shades of BROWN or GREENISH BROWN before they make it into an artificial setting and are grown out for MANY months. Few resemble in nature what you have or want in your aquarium. Also - many of those species also live in deeper water but are not as easy (cost effective) to collect. So yeah "Place it in the sun".. pfffft.

I am not going to plant a flag in one camp or another, but there have been photo inhibition studies showing that shallow water corals "turn off" for most of the day and studies showing that many of the "pretty colors" are actually protective, not "healthy", etc. It is certainly reasonable to take something from its natural "evolutionary" environment and place into a tailored environment where certain aspects are amplified, or the organism as a whole is healthier than it was in its "natural home". To argue any differently laughable. Take a coral, plant, virus, mammal, fish, bacterium, spore, or alga from an area where it is native and naturally controlled and place it somewhere else. It may perish, or it may become prolific beyond anything that resembled its natural environment. It may change appearance (not evolve, but immediate appearance or form) based on the local stimuli, etc. These conversations are mostly full of pontification masked as fact, knowledge and understanding.

 

[areefer01]

I am not going to plant a flag in one camp or another, but there have been photo inhibition studies showing that shallow water corals "turn off" for most of the day and studies showing that many of the "pretty colors" are actually protective, not "healthy", etc.

Sun rises. Sun sets. Daily Light Integral (DLI). But now I'm going to get into the don't reference studies side of things.

 

[Miami Reef]

and most SPS are various shades of BROWN or GREENISH BROWN before they make it into an artificial setting and are grown out for MANY months.

And selection of the colorful types, leaving the brown ones in the ocean.

How many people have pet brown birds? Do the birds get more colorful on being captured?

I couldn’t have said it better than Randy.

 

[djf91]

I find it pointless to keep using "they are in shallow water with full sunlight" as the evidence that is what "they" "should" have. Sure, most of the corals that we collect are found in shallow water, and most SPS are various shades of BROWN or GREENISH BROWN before they make it into an artificial setting and are grown out for MANY months. Few resemble in nature what you have or want in your aquarium. Also - many of those species also live in deeper water but are not as easy (cost effective) to collect. So yeah "Place it in the sun".. pfffft.

I am not going to plant a flag in one camp or another, but there have been photo inhibition studies showing that shallow water corals "turn off" for most of the day and studies showing that many of the "pretty colors" are actually protective, not "healthy", etc. It is certainly reasonable to take something from its natural "evolutionary" environment and place into a tailored environment where certain aspects are amplified, or the organism as a whole is healthier than it was in its "natural home". To argue any differently laughable. Take a coral, plant, virus, mammal, fish, bacterium, spore, or alga from an area where it is native and naturally controlled and place it somewhere else. It may perish, or it may become prolific beyond anything that resembled its natural environment. It may change appearance (not evolve, but immediate appearance or form) based on the local stimuli, etc. These conversations are mostly full of pontification masked as fact, knowledge and understanding.

In your first paragraph you say that most of the SPS in shallow waters are brown and dull. And so then by the logic of your second paragraph they would be healthy right because they aren’t the unhealthy “pretty” colors? Just trying to follow you here.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sun rises. Sun sets. Daily Light Integral (DLI). But now I'm going to get into the don't reference studies side of things.

I have no desire to go dig the stuff up (it may have been Dana's, somebody else's) but the point was that in the hours approaching and leaving noon, the corals may purposefully photo inhibit to protect themselves. I don't care one way or the other. The point is there are studies (right or wrong) and there are "but it is natural" which is even less supported than referencing a study.

 

[BeanAnimal]

In your first paragraph you say that most of the SPS in shallow waters are brown and dull. And so then by the logic of your second paragraph they would be healthy right because they aren’t the unhealthy “pretty” colors? Just trying to follow you here.

Two different points.

1 - the "they come from shallow water and full sun, so that must be what we should mimic" - when in fact many of the coral are actually brown in that environment.

2 - Unrelated - Coral fluorescence and coloring in some corals may be a protection mechanism (not health or lack of health) from certain wavelengths or spectra.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I couldn’t have said it better than Randy.

I highly respect Randy in all things Chem related...

But with regard to coral coloration, that is not really the whole story. The brown and green corals are collected and many color up amazingly in captivity. Your brown birds don't have a mechanism to "change color" or host algae and other mechanisms that can change their coloration.... It is not a good analogy IMHO.

 

[JoshO]

I highly respect Randy in all things Chem related...

But with regard to coral coloration, that is not really the whole story. The brown and green corals are collected and many color up amazingly in captivity. Your brown birds don't have a mechanism to "change color" or host algae and other mechanisms that can change their coloration.... It is not a good analogy IMHO.

I couldn't have said it better
I'm going to continue to dig deeper and find more studies into spectrum and the growth of corals. There has to be something that can be universally accepted as "better" than the next...a pH of 8.4 is better than 8.2, but 8.2 still grows corals!

 

[djf91]

Two different points.

1 - the "they come from shallow water and full sun, so that must be what we should mimic" - when in fact many of the coral are actually brown in that environment.

2 - Unrelated - Coral fluorescence and coloring in some corals may be a protection mechanism (not health or lack of health) from certain wavelengths or spectra.

Ok, but then wouldn’t the brown corals in these shallow waters be displaying these “protective colors” if their health was truly at risk?

 

[JoshO]

Ok, but then wouldn’t the brown corals in these shallow waters be displaying these “protective colors” if their health was truly at risk?

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding in terms of what is deemed protective and what is not.

Brown corals are such because there is a high level of zooxanthellae in the corals tissue, largely due to high light. The colours we search for in the hobby are usually when this number is reduced and we can see the corals "true" colour. However the colours seen on a reef as a "protective" colour are after a coral has expelled it's zooxanthellae (bleached) due to temperature rises in the water and the coral produces a photoprotective pigment in order to allow the zooxanthellae to repopulate

 

[Reefering1]

From my humble observations, it seems most true corals are brown. People figured out that if you shine blue light at some, they reflect pretty colors, then they try to optimize spectrum to make look best. It seems that even fanciest snazzberry utra dingleflopper is brown if you shine a flashlight on it- or take it outside(in sunlight). Contrasting them are the corals that are so exposed to light that they need to protect themselves. These produce protective pigments that you can actually see regardless of light source(sun, flashlight, mh, led, candle). True colors. To me, this is the draw to mh(along with not having a dark subdued tank that I can't see every inch of). That and the fact that i can't stop starring at it, its so beautiful(Phoenix 14k). If uv and ir are so irrelevant to health/ color/ growth, why do you get tanned,sunburn while scuba diving reefs? Why/ how do people get vitaminD from sunlight? Why are the prettiest pictures of deep space infrared? Any camera can see the ir repeater of a remote control, why can't corals "see" ir? Simple questions from a simple(ish) man looking for a simple solution to a complex subject.