Heartbroken - 4 Fish Down in 2 Days - Help with ID please

[Stevorino]

Been reefing 10+ years and never seen anything like this....

I noticed on Friday our most recent fish addition, White Tail Bristletooth, was looking really rough (pic below is from yesterday). Heavy breathing, hiding, not eating, and skin was essentially losing color/ looking whiteish under blue lights.

She had been with us ~3 weeks and had previously been in copper/quarantine at LFS for weeks. She did great in our tank. No aggression, eating well, model citizen.

I added some snails/inverts/cleanup crew last week.

(the white spots pics are food in water, not on fish)

Yesterday she was looking bad, along with flame angel (5+ years, fattest angel I've ever seen), Bicolor blenny, and Copperband.

Corals and inverts all look great.

Parameters have been stable and right in line.

I threw some airstones in the display and created more surface agitation on Sunday AM to make sure oxygen wasn't an issue.

All four are dead today.

I have 2 more fish that look slightly affected: Blue Hippo I've had for ~5+ years and a single anthias. They're skin looks fine, and they are still eating, but hiding more than normal and looking slightly lethargic.

No white/black spots/marks on any fish in the tank.

All other fish in the tank look unaffected (2x clowns, 2x anthias, midas blenny, yellow tang, melanarus wrasse).

 

[vetteguy53081]

Two things that contribute to this is water quality and disease
You say numbers are stable
What is your ammonia- nitrate- ph- salinity and temperature?
How are you testing?
Any notable signs such as heavy breathing, hiding, gasping st surface, no appetite, etc?
How ate you acclimating fish and for how long?

 

[Cell]

Is your LFS copper QT an actual therapeutic level of Cu or just enough to suppress diseases until it gets sold?

 

[Stevorino]

Thanks for the fast response!

Two things that contribute to this is water quality and disease
You say numbers are stable
What is your ammonia- nitrate- ph- salinity and temperature?
How are you testing?

Temp: 78-78.5 (Apex, and hand tested today with food therm)
Ammonia: 0 (tested at LFS yesterday)
Nitrite: 0 (tested at LFS yesterday)
Nitrate: 12.8 (been between 11-15 for 3 weeks. Test with Hanna)
Phos: .09 (Hanna)
Salinity: 35.25 (tested with refract, calibrate before each use)

Any notable signs such as heavy breathing, hiding, gasping st surface, no appetite, etc?

All four had similar pattern:

Looked normal/healthy Thursday.

Started hiding/showing fading skin 48-72 hours before death. Heavy breathing. Decreasing appetite until no appetite the last ~24 hours.

How ate you acclimating fish and for how long?

All fish from LFS that have lower salinity and copper. I put them in a bucket and drip acclimate ~30-45 minutes. All fish have looked great for weeks/months/years depending on fish.

 

[LPS Bum]

If your corals look good I’m assuming your water quality is sufficient to keep fish (no ammonia, proper salinity and temp, etc).

My first thought when I hear something like this is marine velvet. It kills (and spreads) very quickly.

As mentioned above, the new fish may have been in sub therapeutic copper levels at your LFS. That will suppress the parasite but not kill it. The only way to prevent this is to QT all your new fish at home, at full therapeutic copper levels before introducing them to your display.

That’s the only way you can know for certain that the fish have been properly medicated. Otherwise you just have to take the vendor’s word for it.

 

[Stevorino]

Is your LFS copper QT an actual therapeutic level of Cu or just enough to suppress diseases until it gets sold?

I've never gotten that granular with them, but I can ask next time I am in there. I've bought fish from them 10+ years, never had an illness/outbreak like this.

Yesterday they asked me to catch the fish and bring it in so that they could put it in their system, implying it was therapeutic levels that could potentially save the fish.

 

[Gill the 3rd]

Unfortunately, I'm wondering if you have velvet. Breathing heavy and hiding are what my fish were doing as well when I had it. Are they swimming into the power heads at all? When I got velvet in my tank it was wiping out my fish quickly and not all of them showed the white dusting.

The LFS keeping the fish in copper means nothing - I got velvet in my system from a LFS that "quarantined" their fish. All they did was keep the copper at a level to suppress the disease, not treat it. That happened many years ago and I never made that mistake again.

 

[Stevorino]

Unfortunately, I'm wondering if you have velvet. Breathing heavy and hiding are what my fish were doing as well when I had it. Are they swimming into the power heads at all? When I got velvet in my tank it was wiping out my fish quickly and not all of them showed the white dusting.

The LFS keeping the fish in copper means nothing - I got velvet in my system from a LFS that "quarantined" their fish. All they did was keep the copper at a level to suppress the disease, not treat it. That happened many years ago and I never made that mistake again.

The White Tail was swimming in flow a little bit last week, but I couldn't say it was a concerning level. Certainly not swimming into it like I have seen fish over the years do when not looking great. None of the other fish had that kind of behavior.

At this point I'm trying to figure out what to do with the rest of the fish.

I agree velvet seems like the most likely culprit.

 

[Gill the 3rd]

The White Tail was swimming in flow a little bit last week, but I couldn't say it was a concerning level. Certainly not swimming into it like I have seen fish over the years do when not looking great. None of the other fish had that kind of behavior.

At this point I'm trying to figure out what to do with the rest of the fish.

I agree velvet seems like the most likely culprit.

If you are going to treat for velvet, you need to pull all the fish, put them in a qt tank and treat with copper. I used copper power at 2.5 ppm for 30 days. Use a Hanna Copper checker to test your copper level. I kept my display tank fallow for 76 days to be safe, but I believe with velvet you can go shorter due to the faster life cycle.

For fish that were copper sensitive, I did the tank transfer method with a peroxide dip in between transfers. Both treatments worked well.


@Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 can provide more information

 

[Stevorino]

If you are going to treat for velvet, you need to pull all the fish, put them in a qt tank and treat with copper. I used copper power at 2.5 ppm for 30 days. Use a Hanna Copper checker to test your copper level. I kept my display tank fallow for 76 days to be safe, but I believe with velvet you can go shorter due to the faster life cycle.

For fish that were copper sensitive, I did the tank transfer method with a peroxide dip in between transfers. Both treatments worked well.


@Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 can provide more information

I’m going to go get a QT tank today. Already have the copper power and Hanna checker on hand.

I’m hesitant to pull all these fish, but I’m afraid if it is velvet and I don’t that this could reappear down the line.

Heartbreaking and a ******* pain in the butt

 

[wlmalek]

The White Tail was swimming in flow a little bit last week, but I couldn't say it was a concerning level. Certainly not swimming into it like I have seen fish over the years do when not looking great. None of the other fish had that kind of behavior.

At this point I'm trying to figure out what to do with the rest of the fish.

I agree velvet seems like the most likely culprit.

no LFS will sell you a “QTed” fish for retail price. They always come at 3-4x. I’m not saying they have played you. But, unfortunately, they also may not be completely familiar with QT protocols.

they may have copper at therapeutic levels as they said. But, any wet drop from any hand or tool or any new addition of fish will restart the cycle.

A trusty LFS on my area says they use (copper power) to qt the new arrivals. But, after checking with my hanna copper tester it was at 0.4 ppm which is way far from 2-2.5 ppm therapeutic level.

for your situation you can do 30 days copper qt or TTM-velvet version. The normal TTM is only for ich and wont cover velvet. And let your tank run fish-less for 45-75 days.

 

[Dom]

She had been with us ~3 weeks and had previously been in copper/quarantine at LFS for weeks.

This is why I don't trust the LFS.

It has long been accepted that the local, brick and mortar fish stores struggle to be competitive with their online counterparts.

So when a LFS says that they "quarantine", I immediately think of the expense of maintaining therapeutic levels of copper in a QT tank.

Always assume that the fish is diseased and quarantine ( I wait 90 days ).

Relying on the LFS for your water testing isn't ideal. Water testing costs money and I can't see a LFS doing reliable water testing without charging. Early on in my reefing "career", I provided a water sample to the LFS and asked: "Can you test this water and tell me if I am ready to have an Anemone". I asked specifically for Nitrate and Phosphate numbers.

Less than 5 minutes later, the sales person came to me and said "your water is good to go".

I asked: " What are the numbers and which test kit dis you use?"

He said: "I didn't do the test, but we use Red Sea".

The Red Sea nitrate has a 9 minute wait time AFTER adding and mixing reagent. So how did this test result come back in less than 5 minutes?

It is so important that you do this work yourself.

 

[Dom]

Is your LFS copper QT an actual therapeutic level of Cu or just enough to suppress diseases until it gets sold?

Of course they will say they run the tank at therapeutic levels.

 

[Pickle_soup]

Two things stick out to me. Do not believe the LFS store for crap. They are in the business of selling, not honesty. Just cause it's in copper, it doesn't mean it is at a therapeutic level. It's mostly likely there to mask parasites. Secondly, adding anything to the tank without a QT is a risk. The practices of LFS for the most part are shambolic. They use the same nets for everything. Cross-contamination is very prevalent. Not many people do it, but if you are considering adding CUCs and corals over a period of time, a QT for corals and inverts is not a bad idea.

*Most of those tanks in LFS run on the same filtration system. It is too expensive for them to keep therapeutic levels of copper. It is time-consuming, and a small LFS has a hard time staying open these days. When the economy is poor, hobbies get the biggest beatdown.

 

[Stevorino]

This is why I don't trust the LFS.

It has long been accepted that the local, brick and mortar fish stores struggle to be competitive with their online counterparts.

So when a LFS says that they "quarantine", I immediately think of the expense of maintaining therapeutic levels of copper in a QT tank.

Always assume that the fish is diseased and quarantine ( I wait 90 days ).

Relying on the LFS for your water testing isn't ideal. Water testing costs money and I can't see a LFS doing reliable water testing without charging. Early on in my reefing "career", I provided a water sample to the LFS and asked: "Can you test this water and tell me if I am ready to have an Anemone". I asked specifically for Nitrate and Phosphate numbers.

Less than 5 minutes later, the sales person came to me and said "your water is good to go".

I asked: " What are the numbers and which test kit dis you use?"

He said: "I didn't do the test, but we use Red Sea".

The Red Sea nitrate has a 9 minute wait time AFTER adding and mixing reagent. So how did this test result come back in less than 5 minutes?

It is so important that you do this work yourself.

I'm sorry you have a bad LFS.

My LFS is not bad. We sat and talked about the issue for ~20 minutes, during which they offered to test the ammonia and nitrite since those were the only params I hadn't tested already. I watched them test as we discussed potential issues. They offered that if I could catch the fish they'd put it in their QT system.

 

[Pickle_soup]

I'm sorry you have a bad LFS.

My LFS is not bad. We sat and talked about the issue for ~20 minutes, during which they offered to test the ammonia and nitrite since those were the only params I hadn't tested already. I watched them test as we discussed potential issues. They offered that if I could catch the fish they'd put it in their QT system.

That's nice of them. However, I still wouldn't trust them. I had an LFS that I was going to for 20 years, them I trusted. New owners are clueless and are trying to stay above water.

 

[Stevorino]

That's nice of them. However, I still wouldn't trust them. I had an LFS that I was going to for 20 years, them I trusted. New owners are clueless and are trying to stay above water.

This store has been going ~40 years. They are truly great. A good friend of mine worked for them in the 90s and could only say the best things about their practices. This isn't a normal LFS. I have plenty of them in my area and this is the only one I trust without hesitation.

Honestly, if I had to put money on where velvet could have come into the tank, it would have been via recent coral and invert purchases I have made online.

**EDIT ** I now remember that the anthias were not QT'd and they warned me, as they didn't look good. I bought them ~6 weeks ago. I had 5 and 2 died within a couple of weeks. I chalked it up to tank aggression. ****.

It really doesn't matter. I am going to get a QT tank this afternoon.

 

[Pickle_soup]

This store has been going ~40 years. They are truly great. A good friend of mine worked for them in the 90s and could only say the best things about their practices. This isn't a normal LFS. I have plenty of them in my area and this is the only one I trust without hesitation.

Honestly, if I had to put money on where velvet could have come into the tank, it would have been via recent coral and invert purchases I have made online.

It really doesn't matter. I am going to get a QT tank this afternoon.

I am happy to hear it. Stores like that are very rare now. If you trust them, trust them. But yeah, I don't add anything to my tank without a QT. All my inverts and corals have to wait for 76 day to get into DT.

 

[Spare time]

I've never gotten that granular with them, but I can ask next time I am in there. I've bought fish from them 10+ years, never had an illness/outbreak like this.

Yesterday they asked me to catch the fish and bring it in so that they could put it in their system, implying it was therapeutic levels that could potentially save the fish.

A fish needs to be in copper for 30 days at 81F. LFS run copper so that they can have fish otherwise all of their fish would get velvet and ich. You need to QT the fish. What the copper at the store does is make sure it doesn't break out and infect fish while they are in the tanks there. This won't prevent the disease from happening in your tank if it gets carried over when you buy fish, coral, etc. as diseases like velvet and ich have timelines that need to runout.

 

[Spare time]

Looks like velvet to me. Even if it is marine ich, you need to pull them out and treat them with copperpower at about 2.25ppm (allows for error) for 30 days at 81F.


Sorry to see this happen with the fishies. It is never fun