Heartbroken - 4 Fish Down in 2 Days - Help with ID please

[MnFish1]

1. It looks like velvet, (to me) and all of your fish will need to be treated - and the time frame seems to go along with it (to a degree)...
2. Though it looks like velvet, fish can have multiple parasites, and in addition to the copper protocol listed at the top of the fish disease forum, I would dose prazipro as well (both in a hospital tank)
3. Velvet (if indeed this is what it is) can be an extremely quick killer - I would attempt to set something up (even if a simple bucket) quickly (with an ayirstone/heater of course)

You will need to watch ammonia carefully perhaps the easiest is a seachem alert badge.

your tank will need to be fallow for 6 weeks with no fish.

I am going to disagree with the idea that LFS can't, won't, etc do proper QT. There are several that do. However there is a higher price. I believe the LFS mentioned in the OP was using hypo salinity (like 1.019) as compared to 1.009 which is needed to kill Ich. Hyposalinity does not affect velvet. Also - the copper levels needed for QT are often not high enough at an LFS.

Good luck to the OP

 

[Stevorino]

1. It looks like velvet, (to me) and all of your fish will need to be treated - and the time frame seems to go along with it (to a degree)...
2. Though it looks like velvet, fish can have multiple parasites, and in addition to the copper protocol listed at the top of the fish disease forum, I would dose prazipro as well (both in a hospital tank)
3. Velvet (if indeed this is what it is) can be an extremely quick killer - I would attempt to set something up (even if a simple bucket) quickly (with an ayirstone/heater of course)

You will need to watch ammonia carefully perhaps the easiest is a seachem alert badge.

your tank will need to be fallow for 6 weeks with no fish.

I am going to disagree with the idea that LFS can't, won't, etc do proper QT. There are several that do. However there is a higher price. I believe the LFS mentioned in the OP was using hypo salinity (like 1.019) as compared to 1.009 which is needed to kill Ich. Hyposalinity does not affect velvet. Also - the copper levels needed for QT are often not high enough at an LFS.

Good luck to the OP

Thanks so much - QT is getting picked up from Petsmart today and I have the other necessities already on hand... hoping to start catching fish tonight. Gladly everyone else remaining looks good except for one anthias, which I will try to prioritize.

This ordeal has been a gut punch, but I'm trying to stay positive and make the most of it. I'm just glad it didn't happen further down the line.

If anyone has recommendations for biofiltration in the QT, I'm all ears. I have bioballs already seeding in my main system. Would love to figure out how to make an ongoing QT, but I assume that's not recommended.

 

[MnFish1]

Looks like velvet to me. Even if it is marine ich, you need to pull them out and treat them with copperpower at about 2.25ppm (allows for error) for 30 days at 81F.


Sorry to see this happen with the fishies. It is never fun

The copper goal is 2.5 ppm - making sure you're using the correct copper

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks so much - QT is getting picked up from Petsmart today and I have the other necessities already on hand... hoping to start catching fish tonight. Gladly everyone else remaining looks good except for one anthias, which I will try to prioritize.

This ordeal has been a gut punch, but I'm trying to stay positive and make the most of it. I'm just glad it didn't happen further down the line.

If anyone has recommendations for biofiltration in the QT, I'm all ears. I have bioballs already seeding in my main system. Would love to figure out how to make an ongoing QT, but I assume that's not recommended.

You can use a 'sponge filter' with an airstone which will also provide oxygenation. You can also ask your LFS if they have a good quality bacterial product (like Fritz 9000) to help with the biologic filter. If you find you need to do water changes - make sure you're adding copper to the new water to the 2.5 ppm level - and then remove water from your QT and add the new water with copper already in it (ie.. do not let the copper level drop when doing water changes). If you have any questions please ask.

I meant to say - I mentioned Prazipro - you do not need to dose that with the copper, it comes after.

 

[Stevorino]

The copper goal is 2.5 ppm - making sure you're using the correct copper

I've got Copper Power on hand - I assume that's the best? Normal salinity or lower?

 

[Spare time]

Thanks so much - QT is getting picked up from Petsmart today and I have the other necessities already on hand... hoping to start catching fish tonight. Gladly everyone else remaining looks good except for one anthias, which I will try to prioritize.

This ordeal has been a gut punch, but I'm trying to stay positive and make the most of it. I'm just glad it didn't happen further down the line.

If anyone has recommendations for biofiltration in the QT, I'm all ears. I have bioballs already seeding in my main system. Would love to figure out how to make an ongoing QT, but I assume that's not recommended.

An ongoing QT is recommended. You can just keep it running like a separate tank

 

[MnFish1]

I've got Copper Power on hand - I assume that's the best? Normal salinity or lower?

Velvet is not affected by hypo salinity - I would use the same salinity as your display tank. On an side issue - when you take fish from low salinity to high salinity (like from the LFS) - a 30 minute acclimation may not be enough - I would check with the lFS if you buy fish from them and adjust your timing based on the salinity in your display vs the salinity in the bag.

 

[Stevorino]

If you find you need to do water changes - make sure you're adding copper to the new water to the 2.5 ppm level - and then remove water from your QT and add the new water with copper already in it (ie.. do not let the copper level drop when doing water changes).

If drops for.... ~15 minutes is that a deal breaker?

Should I do a freshwater dip at any point in this process?

 

[wlmalek]

Thanks so much - QT is getting picked up from Petsmart today and I have the other necessities already on hand... hoping to start catching fish tonight. Gladly everyone else remaining looks good except for one anthias, which I will try to prioritize.

This ordeal has been a gut punch, but I'm trying to stay positive and make the most of it. I'm just glad it didn't happen further down the line.

If anyone has recommendations for biofiltration in the QT, I'm all ears. I have bioballs already seeding in my main system. Would love to figure out how to make an ongoing QT, but I assume that's not recommended.

Bioballs in HOB filter will be fine if you got decent water volume to the bio load. you can use live rock from you dt with no corals and inverts. But, keep in mind it will absorb some of the copper and medication and need to make corrections to stay at therapeutic. This rock will be useless afterward

make sure to have good surface agitation. And test for ammonia frequently. You can lower the salinity faster to a certain level without an issue but you need to do it slower and more gradual before re introduce them again to dt. Its cheaper and you will have the benefit of more dissolved oxygen at lower salinity.

one last reminder. Don’t maintain or touch your dt tank at the same time or use any tool from one tank to another.

 

[stevieduk]

Looks like velvet. If it is, the copper in your suppliers system was surpressing it. Somtimes a fresh water did for 15 mins helps

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This store has been going ~40 years. They are truly great. A good friend of mine worked for them in the 90s and could only say the best things about their practices. This isn't a normal LFS. I have plenty of them in my area and this is the only one I trust without hesitation.

Honestly, if I had to put money on where velvet could have come into the tank, it would have been via recent coral and invert purchases I have made online.

It really doesn't matter. I am going to get a QT tank this afternoon.

FWIW: Coming into this late, but it looks like velvet to me as well. Coppersafe at 2.25 to 2.5 ppm is the best option, treating all fish and letting the tank lay fallow for 60 days.

Two caveats though: setting up a QT "on the fly" is tricky, and copper is not an instant cure, so in cases where fish loss has already begun due to a protozoan issue, it may not work quickly enough to solve the problem in the remaining fish.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Bioballs in HOB filter will be fine if you got decent water volume to the bio load. you can use live rock from you dt with no corals and inverts. But, keep in mind it will absorb some of the copper and medication and need to make corrections to stay at therapeutic. This rock will be useless afterward

make sure to have good surface agitation. And test for ammonia frequently. You can lower the salinity faster to a certain level without an issue but you need to do it slower and more gradual before re introduce them again to dt. Its cheaper and you will have the benefit of more dissolved oxygen at lower salinity.

one last reminder. Don’t maintain or touch your dt tank at the same time or use any tool from one tank to another.

No issue with the bio balls or being careful with cross contamination between QT and DT. However:

1. I would not use live rock from the display tank - it could/will make dosing copper more difficult. An inert hiding place like PVC is best
2. There is no reason to lower salinity for velvet - velvet is not affected by low salinity.

 

[Dom]

I'm sorry you have a bad LFS.

My LFS is not bad. We sat and talked about the issue for ~20 minutes, during which they offered to test the ammonia and nitrite since those were the only params I hadn't tested already. I watched them test as we discussed potential issues. They offered that if I could catch the fish they'd put it in their QT system.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that all LFS are like this. If you've found one that is trustworthy (and they do exist), thats great!

 

[Stevorino]

Quick Update:

All the fish made it through the night in QT!

We got the 40g QT up and running yesterday afternoon w/ 2.4 copper. We worked on rehoming fish until ~10pm. It was a long day but worth it in the long run.

One anthias is still looking pretty weak, but everyone else looks pretty responsive and is eating as of this AM.

Now I just have to get caught up on real life

Appreciate the positive wishes and assistance yesterday - thank you!

 

[wlmalek]

Quick Update:

All the fish made it through the night in QT!

We got the 40g QT up and running yesterday afternoon w/ 2.4 copper. We worked on rehoming fish until ~10pm. It was a long day but worth it in the long run.

One anthias is still looking pretty weak, but everyone else looks pretty responsive and is eating as of this AM.

Now I just have to get caught up on real life

Appreciate the positive wishes and assistance yesterday - thank you!

Great . Wish you good luck and keep going

 

[mdrobc13]

If you are going to treat for velvet, you need to pull all the fish, put them in a qt tank and treat with copper. I used copper power at 2.5 ppm for 30 days. Use a Hanna Copper checker to test your copper level. I kept my display tank fallow for 76 days to be safe, but I believe with velvet you can go shorter due to the faster life cycle.

For fish that were copper sensitive, I did the tank transfer method with a peroxide dip in between transfers. Both treatments worked well.


@Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 can provide more information

What is peroxide treatment? Similar to freshwater dip? Also what fish are copper sensitive...he heard rumors but not seen a specific list in a long while.

 

[williamCreery]

1) if there is a disease, and you oxygenated the water days previously. You quite literally sped up the death of the fish with what ever disease is in the system impacting your fish.

2) Your water is just too dirty. It may sound impossible but realistically, to the human eye we don’t see the massive impact it does to the gills of our fish if not the proper filtration is enough even in a some dirty aquarium set up for some corals but not fish.

 

[Mikeltee]

I had velvet wipe out a tank of 20+ fish in less than 48 hours. I immediately spent less than $100 to assemble 2x QT tanks. I was a fool to not head the warnings. I didn't have a problem for 12 years until that one power blue tang. You have velvet bro...

 

[Stevorino]

Quick Update:

All fish that made it into the QT are alive and doing very well. The most affected fish already look back to normal. Don't worry, they are living in this QT until the display is done with it's 60 day fallow. I did a big water change yesterday and redosed/tested copper. Keeping Ammonia down/neutralized has been the biggest PITA so far.

After hours upon hours of research, I now have no doubt that it was Velvet (the blue tang had classic white dots start to appear the day we transferred her to QT) and I believe an Anthias purchase introduced it a ~month ago to the tank.

Speaking of Anthias..... one of them is turning male in the QT. Watching him change has given us some good vibes as we slog through this QT process.

Also just ordered a small frag tank for coral QT: I've learned my lesson the hard way and am building out a sustainable QT setup for anything new that goes into this tank.

Once again appreciate the posts with positive words of wisdom and encouragement

 

[Gill the 3rd]

Quick Update:

All fish that made it into the QT are alive and doing very well. The most affected fish already look back to normal. Don't worry, they are living in this QT until the display is done with it's 60 day fallow. I did a big water change yesterday and redosed/tested copper. Keeping Ammonia down/neutralized has been the biggest PITA so far.

After hours upon hours of research, I now have no doubt that it was Velvet (the blue tang had classic white dots start to appear the day we transferred her to QT) and I believe an Anthias purchase introduced it a ~month ago to the tank.

Speaking of Anthias..... one of them is turning male in the QT. Watching him change has given us some good vibes as we slog through this QT process.

Also just ordered a small frag tank for coral QT: I've learned my lesson the hard way and am building out a sustainable QT setup for anything new that goes into this tank.

Once again appreciate the posts with positive words of wisdom and encouragement

Thanks for the update and glad to hear the remaining fish are doing well. Its a long process (I've done it twice now), but worth it. Its why I now qt everything first.

One issue I ran into during the fallow period on my display tank was keeping my nutrients up. I wasn't paying attention to the fallow display tank and all of a sudden my nitrates and phosphates dropped to zero. I had to feed the tank to keep nutrients up. Just mentioning it because its something I didnt think about when going fallow.