Help me to understand

[Flippers4pups]

Don't mind at all if y'all would post too.

I did.

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

;HilariousI agree that by bringing these various animals into our lives we must provide them a home that at the very least is safer than where they came. They didn't ask to be brought into our lives and because we brought them in anyway we owe them everything they need to not just survive but thrive for as long as they live.

I do disagree about being their god though. At the end of the day these are living things with minds of their own that are far beyond our control. I've always worked in pet stores and I get asked at least once day what a particular animal is going to do or how its going to respond. To which I respond- I can tell you that certain species will follow certain trends but I can't guarantee this particular animal will adhere to that trend because its an individual and even though a hundred of them will do one thing there will always be one that won't. I've worked with animals long enough to know that the only time I'll be 100% certain what any living thing is going to do is when its no longer living.

There's more to being a god than having something else's life in your hands, I think to be a god you must have complete control over every situation and the ability to definitively influence any situation exactly as you please.

At least thats how I feel about it, what a god is or does is up for serious interpretation and anyone who knows exactly what it means to be a god would have to be one themselves... If that god happens to be reading this thread then I really hope they chime in because I have some serious questions about what they've been doing to the world lately...

After all that I just realized I didn't answer your main question;Hilarious

Price is less relevant to how you go about achieving success than most people think. Don't get me wrong, I'm 2 grand into my first tank (and its a nano) but thats because I don't trust my own handy work at all and certainly not enough to put innocent lives that get no say in the matter on the line. However if I was able to accomplish that with DIY I don't see any reason not to!

Don't get me wrong please. I'm all for DIY. As long as it's successful. I'm not into DIY for experimenting with livestock.

I think its worth pointing out that if nobody experimented with how to keep marine animals in captivity we wouldn't all have aquariums to ask these questions about

 

[Scdell]

I agree that by bringing these various animals into our lives we must provide them a home that at the very least is safer than where they came. They didn't ask to be brought into our lives and because we brought them in anyway we owe them everything they need to not just survive but thrive for as long as they live.

I do disagree about being their god though. At the end of the day these are living things with minds of their own that are far beyond our control. I've always worked in pet stores and I get asked at least once day what a particular animal is going to do or how its going to respond. To which I respond- I can tell you that certain species will follow certain trends but I can't guarantee this particular animal will adhere to that trend because its an individual and even though a hundred of them will do one thing there will always be one that won't. I've worked with animals long enough to know that the only time I'll be 100% certain what any living thing is going to do is when its no longer living.

There's more to being a god than having something else's life in your hands, I think to be a god you must have complete control over every situation and the ability to definitively influence any situation exactly as you please.

At least thats how I feel about it, what a god is or does is up for serious interpretation and anyone who knows exactly what it means to be a god would have to be one themselves... If that god happens to be reading this thread then I really hope they chime in because I have some serious questions about what they've been doing to the world lately...

I think its worth pointing out that if nobody experimented with how to keep marine animals in captivity we wouldn't all have aquariums to ask these questions about

Yeah God may be an extreme, but we are taking them, putting them in a box and creating their world. We decide when they eat, what they eat, what their living conditions are. I have 2 blue damsels that spawn in my tank. I have no control over that, except to give them the conditions they like to be able to. So, yeah what we do for them has a decision on how they act. That's all I'm trying to say

 

[Scdell]

I agree that by bringing these various animals into our lives we must provide them a home that at the very least is safer than where they came. They didn't ask to be brought into our lives and because we brought them in anyway we owe them everything they need to not just survive but thrive for as long as they live.

I do disagree about being their god though. At the end of the day these are living things with minds of their own that are far beyond our control. I've always worked in pet stores and I get asked at least once day what a particular animal is going to do or how its going to respond. To which I respond- I can tell you that certain species will follow certain trends but I can't guarantee this particular animal will adhere to that trend because its an individual and even though a hundred of them will do one thing there will always be one that won't. I've worked with animals long enough to know that the only time I'll be 100% certain what any living thing is going to do is when its no longer living.

There's more to being a god than having something else's life in your hands, I think to be a god you must have complete control over every situation and the ability to definitively influence any situation exactly as you please.

At least thats how I feel about it, what a god is or does is up for serious interpretation and anyone who knows exactly what it means to be a god would have to be one themselves... If that god happens to be reading this thread then I really hope they chime in because I have some serious questions about what they've been doing to the world lately...

I think its worth pointing out that if nobody experimented with how to keep marine animals in captivity we wouldn't all have aquariums to ask these questions about

And yes, without experimenting we would be nowhere close to where we are now. That I did think about. I think I still have the original Julian Sprung book on reefkeeping. Signed by him too.

 

[Scdell]

I did.

That's an old pic. Seen it about 20 times now. The only one you keep throwing out there. I've had some issues. I put black sand in my tank from day one. Sent an ICP test out. Had very high metals. Been working on that. Got most of the black sand out and replaced it. I'll post a pic of before and after tomorrow. Please update yours.

 

[Flippers4pups]

More than happy to share, plenty of current pictures and old ones too:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/flippers-reef-125-gallon.317425/

Enjoy!

 

[Punchanello]

There is definitely a level of elitism about this hobby. Some of it financial. A great deal of what drives the marketing and desire to be in this hobby is status.

I grew up pretty poor and one thing I learnt is that nothing drives ingenuity, innovation and discovery like having to make do with what you have. I admire that DIY spirit because I seriously lack talent in that department. People who are successful without the latest, greatest and most expensive should be celebrated. They have a lot to share and we can learn a lot from them. Not least of which, you don't need to swallow all the marketing bunk that 2/3rds of the industry uses to hood-wink us in to parting us with out money to be succesful

Full disclosure though, nothing drives a desire for fancy stuff like never having been able to afford it. I definitely bought higher end stuff for my set-up but often question true value for the animals.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I’ve bought “good quality” equipment for my tank, but I just chose to buy it used. My animals don’t care if my light fixture is older as long as it works well and the bulbs are new They don’t care if my MP40’s were bought off of someone leaving the hobby and repaired as needed. And so on...

I can afford my hobby, but I’m also someone that has other hobbies (horse, dogs - I’m an animal lover and absolutely care about all of my animal’s welfare) and I have a large family. I might choose not to buy the newest, flashy equipment and buy what I want second-hand if possible. I do make sure all my animals have what they need though. If my fish need a certain food, medications, or an emergency QT setup, I buy them. My horse or dogs need a vet... I make sure they get it. But, if I buy my saddle second-hand and it fits fine.... you get the idea.

This particular reef has been running for about two years. I’ve had set-backs, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think I’ve been “less successful” for trying to adhere to a budget that works for my family and personal situation and preferences.

 

[Humblefish]

You can find ways to save $$$ without compromising the health of the animals under your care. Case in point: Let's say you start a tank with no sump, no skimmer, no high-end lighting. There's nothing wrong with a HOB filter, some cheap Koralias for circulation, a used 4 bulb T5 fixture, and maybe save up for a HOB skimmer down the road. Just don't put SPS in that... Stick with soft corals and hardy LPS which don't require perfect (i.e. low nutrient) water conditions to grow.

 

[chefjpaul]

I've kept successful tanks with cheep equipment both fresh and salt, I now can afford whatever I want, and have had failures, as well, with and without budget.

I have found, from listening, watching, Learning and yes experimenting that the key is just basic stability and consistency.

Don't need much for that, but patience and knowledge.

 

[Rakie]

Edited it. And that's my point. People want but can't afford. Wants over needs. Human nature.

You know how many vendors out there use Jebao pumps and black boxes? I think you'd be surprised.. You can be cheap in this hobby, you just have to know what comes with that, and how to make up with the shortfalling of chosen equipment.

 

[HB AL]

I didn’t read any of the posts other than the op’s 1st original. I will say I feed my 3 labs very good expensive food for there health which in turn they don’t have to go to the vet ever except for shots, I attribute that to the really good food they eat. I will say I’ve had freshwater and saltwater tanks for over 30 years so I’m sure the years of trial and error have helped me get to where my tank is today. As far as fowlr or reef tanks The so called BEST, MOST EXPENSIVE equipment does not = the best for an aquarium and it’s inhabitants. I have the money to buy the best of everything, controllers, pumps, dosers etc... I dose everything by hand, don’t have any controllers, couldn’t tell you the brand of the 2 return pumps in the sump. I have a Vertex skimmer by far Not the BEST, MOST EXPENSIVE out there. I have 3 inexpensive Jebao wavemakers definitely not even close to the BEST, MOST EXPENSIVE available but really all they do is push around water. The only expensive equipment I have are my Kessil lights, for a few reasons, they grow corals great, my tank is in my bedroom so I don’t get the heat from non led lights and I don’t need a chiller to keep my tank and bedroom from being a hot sauna. My current tank is a 92g cadlights not the BEST AND MOST EXPENSIVE but really all you need it for is to hold water, I picked it up on a Black Friday sale 3 years ago for $700 for the tank, stand, sump and a return pump with everything still working as it did over 3 years ago. My tank is pretty much on auto pilot, don’t do water changes and have a heavy bio load with my 14 healthy fish which I feed 8 cubes of various frozen Hikari cubes and a bunch of healthy corals that have all grown from small frags over the last 3 years, along with having to frag them so it doesn’t become a cluster which it kind of is. I will post a couple recent pics so nobody thinks I’m blowing smoke up there butt and you don’t really need the Best and MOST EXPENSIVE equipment to have success in this hobby and have healthy fish and healthy corals.

 

[Sashaka]

I had a tank about 20 years ago. I didn't have the money to buy what was right. I tried a lot of DIY stuff. I ended up killing more things for my desire to have a reef tank. I finally gave it up.

I think you answered your own question. It's "human nature." They "cheap out" for the same reasons you did 20 years ago. People (you, me, and the rest of humanity) learn from experience, mostly from mistakes. Sad...but true. Happily, in today's market, there IS a tank and the necessary tank equipment to fit almost any budget. Saltwater tanks are not (and should not) be just for the rich. The BioCube is a great example of how far the hobby has come in 20 years...it's a great example of keeping a successful saltwater tank on a budget.

I asked a question. Don't see any attacking of motives or character. It's all in interpretation.

Your response to @Maacc suggests you felt the need to become defensive. I understand. We are passionate about our fish, our tanks, and what we believe is the BEST way to care for our babies. We pour tons of money into our hobby, baby our fish, love them even! If I understood the point of your post, your intent was to vent about fish keeping practices, specifically about purchasing and keeping fish and corals using inferior equipment. Respectfully, this is a put down to someone who is keeping fish with DIY equipment or one who does not buy name brand equipment. In truth, beginner mistakes probably factor more into fish loss than the type of equipment used to run a tank. Today we understand that each tank environment is unique, even when the same equipment is installed. We know a tank can evolve or crash based on many factors. Sadly, I've read many posts here of experienced reefers sharing the heartache of a crash and/or fish loss. Unfortunately, there is no one way to go about keeping a FOWLR or a reef tank successfully, but many, so being respectful of other points of views is important.

Others here have been sidetracked by your choice of deity references. I'll explain: For people who practice a christian faith, god with a lowercase "g" is a reference to any pagan or mythical deity. God with a capital "G" is a reference to the christian God. To compare yourself to Him (the Christian God) is offensive to practicing Christians. Maybe editing in this area will redirect the focus back to your topic?

 

[Sashaka]

you don’t really need the Best and MOST EXPENSIVE equipment to have success in this hobby

Your tank is BEAUTIFUL! I wish...some day...to do fewer water changes, too. That's my goal.

 

[HB AL]

Your tank is BEAUTIFUL! I wish...some day...to do fewer water changes, too. That's my goal.

Thanks, just wish the internet and forums like these were around back in the day, it would have greatly shortened the learning curve, especially with the great info the pros give out. Books and the lfs were ok for some basic info back then but the wealth of knowledge from different folks on forums like this and item specific articles on the net nowadays sure make things easier, it’s almost like cheating. Not to mention the amount of different additives and products available nowadays.

 

[Sashaka]

I agree wholeheartedly. I have learned so much from R2R members in the 1-1/2 years that I've been here that my LFS gets upset with me when I catch them providing incorrect information to customers and I butt into the conversation. LOL. Still, that's half the problem I think. I know there are honest and good LFS out there. I just don't have any near me.

 

[Aktric1]

awesome stuff, be great to put together a list of all the products that could be as effective for not so much $$ giving people that are on a tight budget the ability to be successful.

 

[Scdell]

Thank you all!!! You all have enlightened me. And thanks for keeping this thread civil. You've all made me think and I hope I've made you think a little. Yes there are many ways to go about success in this hobby. I didn't mean to advocate the best most expensive equipment.
I bought 2 mp40,s for my tank when I started it off. Expensive? Yes. Good pumps? Yes. But I found they didn't do exactly what I wanted. So, I bought a controller. Just for the sole purpose of being able to program those pumps variably through the day. Expensive? Yes. But I felt that's what my tank needed. Vortech makes a controller that does that, but everything I read said it was a point of sale.
So, yeah the best and most expensive is not always the best.

 

[HB AL]

awesome stuff, be great to put together a list of all the products that could be as effective for not so much $$ giving people that are on a tight budget the ability to be successful.

I kinda hinted at some stuff in my post, but not the less expensive things like additives, by the way that’s a great idea.

 

[SeaDweller]

There’s nothing wrong with buying equipment made in China. Sure, they can fail, but so can your “proper” equipment. And name brand doesn’t equate to “proper”, you don’t define what “proper” means. So you’ve bought Ecotech and that’s “proper”? Some people feel like they want to spend money on stuff that comes at a higher price tag that should last longer, some don’t. Successful tanks happen at either spectrum.

I have German made Tunze in my tanks, have a bricked Apex (proper, right?), have some Chinese made finnex heaters, super reliable made American Iwaki return pump, expensive Chinese Gyre, Geo’s Ca Rx, and reliable Chinese Diablo/Reef octopus skimmer that’s only skipped a beat when I don’t clean it. Is branded product more proper than a non branded one when they all function to do the same thing? Maybe less effectively?

I wouldn’t knock on all Chinese made products cuz I got a Jebao RW15 or PP whatever that’s been running for 7 years, and still on a frag tank!