Help with ID

[dR3ws3r]

I am uncertain with what I have. Initially I had low nutrients and had ID'd dinos as Ostreopsis. I installed a UV and the Dinos seemed to largely disappear. I have dosed nutrients, which were initially low, and have something in the range of .2 Phophate and 10 nitrate. Yet, I continue to have issues.

I think it is still largely Dino, as they aren't as noticeable in the morning, but since I no longer think this is Ostreopis, I have started dosing Silicate to cause a Diatom bloom, while still running UV.

I wouldn't be surprised if I have Dino, diatoms and Cyano unfortunately. Any thoughts from the photos?

The tank is almost 2 years old, and I have battled turf and gha for over a year. I used fluconazol as a last ditch effort, but it didn't kill the algae, and that is when my Dino's popped up.

Currently I am using Microbacter 7 every other night in addition to phyto. dosing silicates and running UV, and still the tank is getting worse.

Can anyone decipher anything from the pictures?

thanks,

 

[JTP424]

The red is Cyano.
Sounds like you're attacking a lot of things with a lot of other things.
Let's take a step back and try to get things running smoothly.

Can you list your set up with photos?
I.E. full tank shot, full sump shot, what media you're running, what your parameters are, what you're dosing.

I feel like all of the dosing/adding/removing is making it difficult to stay stable.

 

[dR3ws3r]

The red is Cyano.
Sounds like you're attacking a lot of things with a lot of other things.
Let's take a step back and try to get things running smoothly.

Can you list your set up with photos?
I.E. full tank shot, full sump shot, what media you're running, what your parameters are, what you're dosing.

I feel like all of the dosing/adding/removing is making it difficult to stay stable.

It might sound like I am doing a lot, but honestly, I am not.

Last parameter check

Phosphate .24
Nitrate 9.6
Alk 8
Cal 410
Mag 1379

The tank is 155. I am running a skimmer 8 hours a day, and using a red sea reef mat. no carbon, no GFO, nothing.

I run UV, and have been dosing Microbacter 7 every other night along with some Phyto.

I started dosing silicates about 10 days ago. There is a brownish film that grows in the glass that has bubbles.

Here is a picture from a few months ago, before the sand started getting covered.

I run 4 MP40s, two on each side of the tank. I have a lot of frags, but other than the leather, and a few misc encrusting corals, most don't really seem to be thriving. Seems like they get a spot of algae on them, and then it is a slow death after that. but that is a whole other topic. I would like to gather some semblence of control, but things all seem to be trending in the wrong direction.

I do a 10% water change once a week. I usually do an algae pull once a week as well, but that is mostly futile. I have many snails, half a dozen urchins, a hippo tang, yellow tang and algae blenny.

I used to run Carbon pretty regularly, but have stopped that altogether for now.

Anything else you want to know or think can help?

 

[JTP424]

What's your lighting schedule look like?
Do you mix your own salt and if so is your TDS at zero before mixing?
What is the reasoning behind the silicate and the phyto dosing?

Just running through the gamut to make sure :)

 

[dR3ws3r]

What's your lighting schedule look like?
Do you mix your own salt and if so is your TDS at zero before mixing?
What is the reasoning behind the silicate and the phyto dosing?

Just running through the gamut to make sure :)

I have a hybrid lighting system ... 4 xr15s and 2 AI blades (grow). I run from about noon till 8 with ramp up and ramp down for about an hour. Using AB+ for the XR15s. Currently I am running around 45% intensity. Mid day the par at the sand is around 90-100 and close to 120-130 in the middle (elevation and center of tank).

I mix my own water using Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt. My RO is at 0-1 ppm typically using a hanna checker. I have seen 2 ppm before, but I changed my media after that.

I have watched a few videos on dealing with Dinos. I am sure it is one of those subjects where opinions vary. BUT Mack's FB page has a lot of good information. First ID which type and then apply an appropriate solution. With Ostreopsis (which is what I originally had), UV is the main weapon as they (dinos) will go into the water column in the evening. What seemed to happen after the Ostreopsis was largely done, was another type of Dino took over. Those that live in the sand. For those types, you can try and out compete them. One way is to dose silicates and to try to cause a diatom bloom. That will outcompete the dinos, then you can lower your silicates over time and eradicate the diatoms. All while maintaining a healthy bio-diversity (phyto and microbacter), and keeping your nutrients at a measurable level. And I think the measurable level is probably very subjective, but I would like to be in a 5-10 range for Nitrate and closer to 0.1 for phosphates.

I have run a few ICP tests and I seem to always be lower in some trace elements. In online discussions, some say that a lack of certain trace elements can trigger Dinos ( at least that is a theory). And Carbon and GFO are effective at stripping out particular Trace elements. I typically follow the ICP instructions on what elements to dose, but I guess unless you test that all the time, you never really know how much that helps.

So just curious, does Cyano and/or diatoms typically disappear in the evening (or when there is no light), or are they persistent? I wouldn't have guessed it was Cyano, just because my nutrients are actually on the middle to higher side, and most people talk about cyano with zero nutrients.

For certain Dino types, they recommend using Carbon as Dinos can be quite toxic, and Carbon can help with that.

 

[JTP424]

My best thought is it's a combo of Dinos/Cyano, the deep maroon makes me think Cyano, if it grows during the photo period and seems to "disappear at night" I'm leaning towards red slime cyano.
Curious as to it's location and if you get good flow in that particular area?

 

[dR3ws3r]

My best thought is it's a combo of Dinos/Cyano, the deep maroon makes me think Cyano, if it grows during the photo period and seems to "disappear at night" I'm leaning towards red slime cyano.
Curious as to it's location and if you get good flow in that particular area?

So does all Cyano only show up during the light period or just some Cyano? Any recommendations on getting rid of it? I know that a lot of people use Chemi-clean. But my experience so far with general cures has not been good as it seems to just throw the bacterial balance in the tank off, and I really don't want more Dinos ...

I really don't mess with the flow very much and have only really seen Cyano in a few small spots over the 2 years I have had the tank. And it isn't like I have had coral growth blocking flow. The little filters I put over the power heads do seem to clog up quite quickly, and I could try and clean them more than once a week. Perhaps I can move the powerheads around and use some bubbles to see if I am not getting good flow in those areas.

You know you hear that people quit the hobby, and I really do get that. As much time and energy and money that I put in, and it just seems to be one battle after another. I have tried to learn as much as I can, but still, there are just so many opinions and answers. I appreciate the help. Just not sure what to do next. It seems like just leaving things alone isn't a very good answer. Things seem to get uglier when I do.

 

[JTP424]

You're absolutely right about the varying opinions and answers :)
The only thing I can recommend is slow going and small changes. You've got the right mindset about trying things and working towards a solution.

I agree with not going chemical route unless absolutely necessary.

From what I know, there are different types of Cyano.
You can tell if the areas get good flow as it should blow the "sheets" of cyano up.

Going back to what you said earlier, this started a few months ago? Anything you can recall happening then?

We will find a solution! (Others should hopefully chime in soon :D)

 

[kizzy89]

When i had cyno and dinos i did big water changes for a couple weeks, like 50% a week or 25% then another 25% a couple days later. It lasted a couple weeks but cleared up after that. I would potentially go that route, but i understand the frustration on it. You said you had green hair algae before which is usually high nutrients based, so again I'd do the big water changes and maybe that will bring you back on track. I also did a couple black out days here and there to help out.

 

[ThisIsTheWay]

If I'm reading your first post correctly, this tank is two years old and based on the pics you started with dry rock. You've been battling turf and gha during that time and as a last ditch effort you dosed the tank with fluconazol and that trigged this mess of dinos and cyan correct?
Just wanting to make sure I get this timeline correct.

I've personally dealt with what I think was a similar red cyano in my nano tank. For me it seemed to come on aggressively when my phosphates bottomed out. Even after I raised my nutrient levels I still had to regularly blow off my rocks and siphon out what I could during regular water changes for weeks (might of even been a couple months) before it completely went away. I don't know how long you've been battling this, but I want you to know it can be beat, it'll just take a lot of patience.
Pic of my 25gal nano during this phase. I don't even think this was the worst of it.

My guess, is that the fluconazol probably kicked your microbiome out of balance and it's gonna take some time for everything to stabilize again. I agree that throwing more chemicals at the problem is most likely not going to solve the issue and could even make it worse.

If you can, I might suggest getting a tigertail sea cucumber. My sand CUC includes a tiger conch, a tigertail sea cucumber, some nassarius snails, and a randall's pistol shrimp that helps by keeping the sand moving a bit. My cucumber split a second time recently (I've had it spit in two before) and has gone into hiding while it heals. I've noticed the sand isn't as clean as normal and looks like a very very mild version of the above picture so it's got me wondering if it's helping keep uglys out of my sandbed more than I realized.

Here's a more recent photo of the tank, you can see how clean the sand is. Keep in mind my nutrients are 50-100 NO3, and about 0.5 PO4.

 

[dR3ws3r]

You're absolutely right about the varying opinions and answers :)
The only thing I can recommend is slow going and small changes. You've got the right mindset about trying things and working towards a solution.

I agree with not going chemical route unless absolutely necessary.

From what I know, there are different types of Cyano.
You can tell if the areas get good flow as it should blow the "sheets" of cyano up.

Going back to what you said earlier, this started a few months ago? Anything you can recall happening then?

We will find a solution! (Others should hopefully chime in soon :D)

This started after using fluconazole. Just like a bunch of products, they are non-selective. They can kill bacteria that are balanced in the tank. Then you have an imbalance and something else takes over. At least I think that is believable, but it isn't something you can easily measure if at all. Even getting rid of the Ostreopsis resulted in a big nutrient swing upward, and that could have resulted in other issues cropping up. Sometimes I wonder if I just don't have enough rockwork to support enough beneficial bacteria.

I continue to run UV, but there are always people who say no, you are hurting your microbiome, and others just don't have issues running it all the time. I like how Carbon keeps the water clear, but it seems to strip out trace elements. Etc. Frustrating.

 

[dR3ws3r]

If I'm reading your first post correctly, this tank is two years old and based on the pics you started with dry rock. You've been battling turf and gha during that time and as a last ditch effort you dosed the tank with fluconazol and that trigged this mess of dinos and cyan correct?
Just wanting to make sure I get this timeline correct.

I've personally dealt with what I think was a similar red cyano in my nano tank. For me it seemed to come on aggressively when my phosphates bottomed out. Even after I raised my nutrient levels I still had to regularly blow off my rocks and siphon out what I could during regular water changes for weeks (might of even been a couple months) before it completely went away. I don't know how long you've been battling this, but I want you to know it can be beat, it'll just take a lot of patience.
Pic of my 25gal nano during this phase. I don't even think this was the worst of it.

My guess, is that the fluconazol probably kicked your microbiome out of balance and it's gonna take some time for everything to stabilize again. I agree that throwing more chemicals at the problem is most likely not going to solve the issue and could even make it worse.

If you can, I might suggest getting a tigertail sea cucumber. My sand CUC includes a tiger conch, a tigertail sea cucumber, some nassarius snails, and a randall's pistol shrimp that helps by keeping the sand moving a bit. My cucumber split a second time recently (I've had it spit in two before) and has gone into hiding while it heals. I've noticed the sand isn't as clean as normal and looks like a very very mild version of the above picture so it's got me wondering if it's helping keep uglys out of my sandbed more than I realized.

Here's a more recent photo of the tank, you can see how clean the sand is. Keep in mind my nutrients are 50-100 NO3, and about 0.5 PO4.

Yeah, what you said about fluconazole is right. It started this whole mess, and didn't even kill the turf algae ... I double dip of badness.

I'm glad to see you were able to work through your problem. Not sure I have even seen a sea cucumber before. Not at my lfs at least.

 

[ThisIsTheWay]

Yeah, what you said about fluconazole is right. It started this whole mess, and didn't even kill the turf algae ... I double dip of badness.

I'm glad to see you were able to work through your problem. Not sure I have even seen a sea cucumber before. Not at my lfs at least.

A very sucky double dip indeed. I saw your comment about rockwork, I don't think it'd harm anything to add more, and you could always just add it in your sump if you don't want to add more to your display. The only downside I could see is that it throws off the tank stability a little while the new rock adjusts, but if the tank is already a little out of balance I don't think it'd do much, especially if it's just in the sump. I'd maybe just keep an eye on nutrients if you do add some to make sure it doesn't spike or bottom out your phosphates since the new rock will either absorb or leach phosphates to bring itself in equilibrium with the tank.

I don't see sea cucumbers often at my LFS either, I think they may be seasonal and only get collected at certain times of the year.

I don't know what your cuc is like but for the algae, have you tried using pitho crabs? I've got a couple, and they're a little hit or miss how long they survive, but they're algae eaters and can definitely devour quite a bit if it's algae they like.

 

[dR3ws3r]

A very sucky double dip indeed. I saw your comment about rockwork, I don't think it'd harm anything to add more, and you could always just add it in your sump if you don't want to add more to your display. The only downside I could see is that it throws off the tank stability a little while the new rock adjusts, but if the tank is already a little out of balance I don't think it'd do much, especially if it's just in the sump. I'd maybe just keep an eye on nutrients if you do add some to make sure it doesn't spike or bottom out your phosphates since the new rock will either absorb or leach phosphates to bring itself in equilibrium with the tank.

I don't see sea cucumbers often at my LFS either, I think they may be seasonal and only get collected at certain times of the year.

I don't know what your cuc is like but for the algae, have you tried using pitho crabs? I've got a couple, and they're a little hit or miss how long they survive, but they're algae eaters and can definitely devour quite a bit if it's algae they like.

I haven't tried any type of crab. I do have a fairie wrasse. Not sure he would go after them or not.

 

[JTP424]

A very sucky double dip indeed. I saw your comment about rockwork, I don't think it'd harm anything to add more, and you could always just add it in your sump if you don't want to add more to your display. The only downside I could see is that it throws off the tank stability a little while the new rock adjusts, but if the tank is already a little out of balance I don't think it'd do much, especially if it's just in the sump. I'd maybe just keep an eye on nutrients if you do add some to make sure it doesn't spike or bottom out your phosphates since the new rock will either absorb or leach phosphates to bring itself in equilibrium with the tank.

I don't see sea cucumbers often at my LFS either, I think they may be seasonal and only get collected at certain times of the year.

I don't know what your cuc is like but for the algae, have you tried using pitho crabs? I've got a couple, and they're a little hit or miss how long they survive, but they're algae eaters and can definitely devour quite a bit if it's algae they like.

I haven't tried any type of crab. I do have a fairie wrasse. Not sure he would go after them or not.

Or maybe some hermits in general! Can assist the snails and get in places the urchins can't.
Keep us updated and keep the questions coming. We want you to succeed!