Help with starting BRS 2-part dosing

[Ghidellas]

So I want to start dosing 2 part and want to see if anyone can help with the initial set up as far as starting point for dose amounts and times. I have a 75g display and estimate around 85g total water volume. I have the 2 part all mixed up, Jebao dosing pump installed and calibrated and just did water testing.

NO3 = 15 (api)
Po4 = .03 (hanna)
CA = 410 (red sea)
Alk= 9 (red sea)
MG = 1300 (red sea)
Ph = 8.09 (apex probe )
Sal. = 1.026 (refractometer )
Temp = 78.6 (apex)

Recent events:
Did 3 day black out to rid Dinos and dosed MB7 for 2 weeks. Been dino free since the blackout which has been 15days

Lost a chalice frag to STN and my torch has not looked good at all since the blackout ( 1 of the 4 heads completely died the other 3 come out maybe an inch at the most) and my red bubble tip is no longer bubble tipped at all. All other corals have been fine. Few zoas and acans look great and other chalice frags are bright and look happy.

Sailfin tang
Yellow tang
Blue hippo tang
Six line wrasse
2 clowns
Green spotted puffer
Coal banded shrimp
Skunk shrimp
3 peppermint shrimp
Big blue starfish

I think that's all the info I have. So looking for some opinions on my levels. Should I adjust? Then some suggestions on dosing amounts and times to start off with. Any input is appreciated!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With a current alk of 9 dKH, it doesn't seem you need much dosing unless you added alk to get there. Here's my starting dosing recommendations (BRS uses my Recipe #1). In your case, I'd start at the level for "New tank" and work up from there:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

from it:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php#15

Dosing Instructions

The dosing instructions are basically the same for each recipe, although any given aquarium will end up using about twice as much of recipe #2 as recipe #1 to add the same amount of calcium and alkalinity.

To initiate dosing, first adjust calcium and alkalinity to roughly their correct ranges. This may require a substantial dose of just the calcium part if calcium is low (e.g., below 380 ppm). I would suggest targeting calcium between 380 and 450 ppm, and alkalinity between 2.5 and 4 meq/L (7-11 dKH; 125-200 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents).

This calculator shows how much of what parts to add in order to boost one or both of the parameters by a certain amount:
Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Then, once things seem roughly correct, select a starting daily dose for routine dosing. Here are some suggested starting doses, but the exact values do not matter much. The suggested doses apply to both recipes.

Table 1. Suggested starting daily doses of this supplement in different aquaria.
Tank Description:
Suggested Starting Doses:...................Recipe #1...................Recipe #2
Fish-only with live rock......................0.1 mL/gallon...................0.2 mL/gallon
New tank, few corals.........................0.2 mL/gallon...................0.4 mL/gallon
Low demand.................................0.3 mL/gallon...................0.6 mL/gallon
Mixed tank.....................................0.5 mL/gallon.....................1 mL/gallon
Heavy demand (SPS corals)...................1 mL/gallon...................2 mL/gallon

After a few days of dosing, note whether alkalinity is low, high or on target. Only bother to test alkalinity, not calcium, during this period, because it is much more sensitive than calcium to over- or underdosing. Adjust the dose up or down as necessary to increase or decrease the alkalinity.

Once you have determined the proper dose, continue it until there is a substantial reason to adjust it (such as falling alkalinity as the corals increase in size). When adjusting the dose, raise or lower both of the recipe's parts together.

Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.

Check alkalinity fairly frequently to make sure the dosing continues at a suitable rate. Check it maybe once a week to once a month (or less as you get more experienced with the system and the tank). Check calcium once a month to once every few months to make sure it continues on track.

Remember to add an appropriate amount of Part 3 each time you finish adding a gallon of Parts 1 and 2...........

 

[iiluisii]

Randy can you explain why do you add the 20oz of magnesium after you use 1 gallon of part 1 and 2?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are different aspects to that question (why add it, timing, what is being added, etc)..

The reason for adding it at all is detailed in this cut and paste from a different thread, but overall, that amount of magnesium will keep the magnesium from going down and it should not greatly increase it as it is designed to exactly offset the demand.


FWIW, most commercial two parts include magnesium in the calcium portion, so people do not know it is even there, but it is. In my DIY is just seems more apparent.

There are two sinks for magnesium in a reef tank using a two part that the two part is supposed to exactly account for and offset.

One is that when calcium carbonate is precipitated by corals or coralline algae for their skeletons, or in abiotic precipitation on pumps and heaters, a certain known amount of magnesium gets into the crystal in place of calcium, so magnesium declines. The biological removal into skeletons varies a bit with the coral type, so the value in a two part is usually is an average estimate. FWIW, this depletion of magnesium is VERY slow, typically 0.1 to 2 ppm per day. So it may go unnoticed for a very long time, even when dosing none, and the addition of magneisum to offset it likewise will go unnoticed for a long time even if none were depleting.

Second, all two part additives slowly raise salinity due to the sodium and chloride (and other ions) that are added. When you reduce the salinity back to normal (whatever that value is for you), everything in the tank declines in value, including magnesium. So a well made two part includes just the right amount of magnesium to offset this necessary decline. This type of magnesium depletion is bit more more than twice as much as is incorporated into skeletons. There is no way around this depletion without adding it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, that third part is not just adding magnesium. Perhaps I should have called it something different.

The two part (both mine and all commercial ones) are designed so that if you dose as directed to maintain alkalinity, it keeps a lot of things where they should be: calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, potassium (if included in the mix), etc. That is the beauty of a two part over simple independent additions of calcium and alkalinity when needed.

I know people often neglect the magnesium part, but it is used not just for magnesium (it is the only source of sulfate in the DIY system), and dosing it as directed won't cause magnesium to rise, only stay where it is. Same for sulfate and chloride. If you do not use it, chloride will rise and sulfate will fall. I that a big deal? Probably not, but I'd still do it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As to the timing, it is perfectly fine (and probably better) to add it in smaller doses DURING the use of each gallon of the other two, as long as you use 20 oz during that time. That is especially important in a smaller tank, and less important in a larger tank.

 

[iiluisii]

Thanks Randy

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Newb73]

unless there are substantial outside influences, Such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters s or an error in making the mixes.

.

And therin seems to be the problem i cannot over come (yet), so i end up having to test alk and Ca like twice a week.....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And therin seems to be the problem i cannot over come (yet), so i end up having to test alk and Ca like twice a week.....

Twice a week? That should not ever be necessary for calcium, and not for alkalinity if you develop a regular procedure for dosing and water changes. How much water are you changing?

 

[rayn]

Does using a certain salt brand help in the dosing procedure? Without going into the salt debate area, are there certain salts better to maintain all and cal then others?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does using a certain salt brand help in the dosing procedure? Without going into the salt debate area, are there certain salts better to maintain all and cal then others?

No. If a salt mix is far in alkalinity or calcium from your reef tank targets, you need to take that into account, and it can make dosing a little trickier if you do largish water changes. But otherwise, the salt mix has little bearing on dosing.

 

[Newb73]

Twice a week? That should not ever be necessary for calcium, and not for alkalinity if you develop a regular procedure for dosing and water changes. How much water are you changing?

To clarify, this is a 3-4 month old 225g tank with a small (40g) sump. Say....235g water volume.

I use about 8 scoops of salt per week so I reckon I'm changing about
16gallons or 7% each week.

However what's giving me headaches is that I'm trying out different salt brands, have just started dosing and even discovered my reagent was bad om my Hanna alk test recently.

All the variables are causing me to have to test often.

Last night I decided to stop doing water changes, figure out my baseline usage and then restart the water changes and see if I can somehow quantify the difference in order to come up with the appropriate dosing schedule.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, with all of those changes I can see more frequent testing. In general, calcium once a month should be adequate. Alkalinity can be usefully tested a lot more frequently, at least when setting up dosing methods.

Once you determine how much you need to maintain alkalinity for a few days, just dose the same amount of the calcium supplement solution each day, and don't adjust it frequently at all unless calcium is already too high or too low. The supplement combination ought to keep it about steady (that's the beauty of a two part), barring big shifts from a water change. However, a water change generally won't push calcium higher or lower than the mix itself, and only a small amount in that direction if it differs from the tank water. For example, tank at 420 ppm calcium and a 7% change with a mix at 500 ppm will only boost calcium to 425.6 ppm, which just isn't even worth bothering to think about.

 

[ttabbal]

I'm glad to see this topic, as I am getting ready to start 2 part as well. I have been adjusting alk slowly as it was low. I'll get calcium adjusted as well, though I don't think it needs much.

I'm curious how it all interacts with kalk. I know kalk is adding some alk and calcium and changing pH. And I know many use it and 2 part. I'm just curious what one gains doing both in preference to just using 2 part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm glad to see this topic, as I am getting ready to start 2 part as well. I have been adjusting alk slowly as it was low. I'll get calcium adjusted as well, though I don't think it needs much.

I'm curious how it all interacts with kalk. I know kalk is adding some alk and calcium and changing pH. And I know many use it and 2 part. I'm just curious what one gains doing both in preference to just using 2 part.

The benefit to using the limewater (kalkwasser) along with the two part is a higher pH, less use of both of the two part parts, and possibly slightly lower phosphate.

 

[ttabbal]

The benefit to using the limewater (kalkwasser) along with the two part is a higher pH, less use of both of the two part parts, and possibly slightly lower phosphate.

Those sound like nice results, I'll keep the kalk around then. [emoji4]

Thanks for the info!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

I discuss it more here:


What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

and the pH effect of the hydroxide here:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: The Relationship Between Alkalinity And pH ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

 

[Pfisherman]

Ahhh I used the search function and found what I was looking for.

 

[Mike Reef Addict]

Two questions Randy?
1) can I add the magnesium to my part Or part B so it doses along with the other?
If not.
2) if I'm dosing 20ml a day how many ml a day would I dose of the magnesium? I just bought a dosing pump an all of the math today has my brain rattled.