High Alk Consumption with very few corals.

[Crashjack]

Personally, I would just add nitrate/phosphate and keep those levels at or above 10 nitrate and .10 phosphate. Not only did this work for me; it is the crux of the entire monster dino thread. I wouldn't use Chemiclean, Dino X, blackouts, or anything else along those lines as those can cause false positives... dinos disappear but then come roaring back, and nutrients spike making you think, "Oh my gosh! I'm killing my tank with nitrate/phosphate!" Only to see those nutrients plummet back to zero in a week or two (been there, got the t-shirt).

If you want to do something additional that might help, you can: 1) Add a UV sterilizer, and/or 2) Add a bacteria product like Dr. Tim's Echo Balance or Microbacter 7, following their weekly dosing protocols. I would include Garf Grunge and the "mud" products in that same category though there is no weekly dosing.

 

[Crashjack]

One other thing. You need to siphon out the dinos at least bi-weekly. Weekly is even better.

 

[BeejReef]

following

 

[Brew12]

I know everyone keeps saying it has to be precipitation but I have seen precip before in several tanks and kinda know what it looks like. I dont even have a sand bed for it to be precipitating into and making it hard to see.

I'd rule out precipitation based on the fact that it continues to drop well after dosing has stopped.

The stuff I am thinking is Cyano must be Dinos. I have bubbles forming all over the surface of my rocks (more so than I have seen yet making me think I am having a bloom after elevating the PO4).

A cheap microscope makes determination easy. I have a nicer one, but there are some scopes under $40 that can determine if it is cyano or dino's and possibly even which strain of dino's.

First: Get NO3 and PO4 stable at detectable levels (shooting for .05ish PO4 and 10-20ppm NO3).

With no coral in the tank, I would do this last.

Second: Hit the tank with Chemiclean. I have used this product before and know what to expect.

This is what I would do first. Just this, see what happens. Cheap, easy, and low risk.

Third: Hit the tank with Dinox. Its my understanding that this works sometimes and other times it doesnt and it largely
depends on the species of dino. I dont have a microscope to ID them with so we are just gonna try it and see. I have no corals in the tank at this point, only fish, so I dont need to really worry about nuking any corals at least.

No experience with DinoX so no opinion here.

Last: Start dosing Vibrant to try and establish some bacteria in the tank to out compete the Dinos. The black out and other
treatments hopefully will have them knocked back enough to give other bacteria a chance to get a foothold.

Vibrant isn't the type of bacteria that will out compete the Dino's. It can be effective against them but is tricky to use. If you go this route I would reach out to UWC on here and ask for his guidance.

If you want to go the "outcompete" route I would save it for the final step. That is when you want to raise your NO3/PO4, dose live phytoplankton, maybe see if you can get some sump muck, rock, or handful of sand from somoene elses system to add diversity.

 

[HWDylan]

UPDATE:
Bought a decent Microscope and started looking at what I have going on here.



I see Dinos ... but not a lot. Even when I sample really slimy areas I am seeing only a few here and there. Nothing that I would be concerned about.

HOWEVER, I do see something else... spirulina cyano. Pics included. Every singe sample, no matter where I take it from, has this stuff in it. It looked like just lint or fuzz at first but at higher magnifications I can see that it is very clearly moving and alive. I went hunting for what it could be and came up with spirulina.

So, no large Dino issue to be found but a spirulina issue. This is an odd turn that I didnt really expect so I am a bit at a loss here.

Any suggestions? I have see scattered reports of Chemiclean at 1.5x the dose working on this stuff but other than that there is little info. I have already hit the tank once with Chemiclean (about 2 days ago) at the normal dosage. I am do it again tonight since Chemi is pretty harmless.

Anyone know anything about this stuff or if this could at all be behind my issues here? I do see people reporting coral death in a tank with a spirulina outbreak.

 

[Brew12]

I've had spirulina in my tank before and it didn't cause issues. Many people feed dried spirulina to their tanks. Heck, people even eat spirulina.

I don't see how it could be a major consumer of alk and calc but I'm sure it would use some.

How much of a CuC do you have in your tank? So much stuff eats spirulina that it's normally not an issue.

 

[HWDylan]

I've had spirulina in my tank before and it didn't cause issues. Many people feed dried spirulina to their tanks. Heck, people even eat spirulina.

I don't see how it could be a major consumer of alk and calc but I'm sure it would use some.

How much of a CuC do you have in your tank? So much stuff eats spirulina that it's normally not an issue.

I thought the same thing at first but I guess I am just at the end of my rope here and want so badly to solve this issue.

I've been able to keep my NO3 and PO4 up (PO4 maybe a little too high I lowered the dosing a bit) recently so maybe just keeping that up and keeping it stable will yield some results. I have considered dosing Microbacter 7. Some people report success with tank stability doing that.

I know a lot of people are in favor of increasing biodiversity in the tank and I couldn't agree more there. I am hesitant to just get something like GARF since I dont know exactly what is in that stuff and it kinda defeats the whole purpose of using dry rock and quarantining everything if I just dump some random reef sludge into the tank. I have purchased 2 jars of the 5280 pods from Algaebarn to get pods going in the tank but that was like 6 months ago and usually when you get pods in a tank I have always seen them boom at some point to where they are clearly visible all over the glass. I cant really find any pods besides amphipods in the tank anymore. At night if I shine my flashlight around in the tank I do see TONS of amphipods. There are also brittle stars and bristle worms as well.

Maybe I should try another batch of pods and see where that will get me. I have considered growing Phyto myself and dosing it as well. Dunno how helpful that actually would be though.

 

[Brew12]

I thought the same thing at first but I guess I am just at the end of my rope here and want so badly to solve this issue.

I've been able to keep my NO3 and PO4 up (PO4 maybe a little too high I lowered the dosing a bit) recently so maybe just keeping that up and keeping it stable will yield some results. I have considered dosing Microbacter 7. Some people report success with tank stability doing that.

I know a lot of people are in favor of increasing biodiversity in the tank and I couldn't agree more there. I am hesitant to just get something like GARF since I dont know exactly what is in that stuff and it kinda defeats the whole purpose of using dry rock and quarantining everything if I just dump some random reef sludge into the tank. I have purchased 2 jars of the 5280 pods from Algaebarn to get pods going in the tank but that was like 6 months ago and usually when you get pods in a tank I have always seen them boom at some point to where they are clearly visible all over the glass. I cant really find any pods besides amphipods in the tank anymore. At night if I shine my flashlight around in the tank I do see TONS of amphipods. There are also brittle stars and bristle worms as well.

Maybe I should try another batch of pods and see where that will get me. I have considered growing Phyto myself and dosing it as well. Dunno how helpful that actually would be though.

I'm a big fan of using diversity to combat issues like cyano and dino's. I just wouldn't go down that path until after any harsher chemical treatments you may consider. If you decide not to do a chemiclean treatment then getting something like the MB7 and dosing phyto sounds like a good option to me. Getting rock from a reefer whose system you trust to be clean would be a good option if available.
I think I would do the chemiclean treatment but not because of the spirulina. I would do it as a shot in the dark to see if it takes out the cause of your high alk consumption.

I understand your concerns with the GARF Grunge. It's a high risk/high reward proposition.

 

[HWDylan]

I'm a big fan of using diversity to combat issues like cyano and dino's. I just wouldn't go down that path until after any harsher chemical treatments you may consider. If you decide not to do a chemiclean treatment then getting something like the MB7 and dosing phyto sounds like a good option to me. Getting rock from a reefer whose system you trust to be clean would be a good option if available.
I think I would do the chemiclean treatment but not because of the spirulina. I would do it as a shot in the dark to see if it takes out the cause of your high alk consumption.

I understand your concerns with the GARF Grunge. It's a high risk/high reward proposition.

I do think this tank is lacking in diversity. The few little rocks that I had zoa frags on came from my work tank but I dipped them pretty heavily in Bayer. My biggest concern is getting aiptasia into this system. I hate that constant fight and am trying really hard to keep them out of this tank. At this point I am almost open to just grabbing some rock from the work tank and throwing it in. That tank has its issues including bubble algae, aiptasia, and flat worms (thinking I have them beat at this point but you never know) but, desperation...

 

[Brew12]

I do think this tank is lacking in diversity. The few little rocks that I had zoa frags on came from my work tank but I dipped them pretty heavily in Bayer. My biggest concern is getting aiptasia into this system. I hate that constant fight and am trying really hard to keep them out of this tank. At this point I am almost open to just grabbing some rock from the work tank and throwing it in. That tank has its issues including bubble algae, aiptasia, and flat worms (thinking I have them beat at this point but you never know) but, desperation...

I get it. And I do agree diversity would help but I personally don't think that is the cause for your high alk/calc consumption. Of course, it could solve it but hard to say without being sure of the cause.

I had to fight aiptasia so I get it. My 6-line made short work of the berghia. First group of peppermint's ignored them. $100+ in chemicals only made them spread worse. A larger second group of peppermints finally took them out. It was interesting that at first only 2 or 3 would eat the aiptasia and I thought it was going to be a failure. The rest must have learned from them because once they started going a few weeks later they disappeared fast. I guess that is why people recommend getting a larger group of the shrimp to increase the odds it works.

I've been fortunate to avoid flat worms, bubble algae and any coral pests. I do have asterina's but they aren't bad yet.

 

[HWDylan]

I dunno if its related or not but...

I stopped scraping the glass off (was recommended in the Dino thread) and even now that I am fairly sure it isnt dinos causing my issues, ive continued with not scraping because it is actually pretty interesting.

You can see how the different bacterial colonies are fighting for space on the surface of the glass.

This is more of an interesting observation than anything but its cool none the less.

The glass is looking like a petri dish.

 

[Bpp124987]

I dunno if its related or not but...

I stopped scraping the glass off (was recommended in the Dino thread) and even now that I am fairly sure it isnt dinos causing my issues, ive continued with not scraping because it is actually pretty interesting.

You can see how the different bacterial colonies are fighting for space on the surface of the glass.

This is more of an interesting observation than anything but its cool none the less.

The glass is looking like a petri dish.

That is so weird. Sure seems like you’ve got some crazy bacteria causing these issues.
Frankly I’d do the chemiclean strategy noted above.
I had a cyano outbreak with a tank early on and chemiclean sorted it and it’s been great since (6+ months)

 

[HWDylan]

That is so weird. Sure seems like you’ve got some crazy bacteria causing these issues.
Frankly I’d do the chemiclean strategy noted above.
I had a cyano outbreak with a tank early on and chemiclean sorted it and it’s been great since (6+ months)

I did hit the tank with Chemiclean today just to see. I did a 1.5x dose that people recommended. Turned off UV and running the skimmer low so it doesn't overflow.

We will see how this affects things. I expect a big no3 and po4 spike since I'm sure the cyano is eating up a lot of the available nutrients currently. I'll keep an eye on that. Po4 is already a bit high 0.2. With no corals in the tank there is nothing to hurt though so I'm not terribly worried about it.

 

[Bpp124987]

I did hit the tank with Chemiclean today just to see. I did a 1.5x dose that people recommended. Turned off UV and running the skimmer low so it doesn't overflow.

We will see how this affects things. I expect a big no3 and po4 spike since I'm sure the cyano is eating up a lot of the available nutrients currently. I'll keep an eye on that. Po4 is already a bit high 0.2. With no corals in the tank there is nothing to hurt though so I'm not terribly worried about it.

I would recommend just taking the skimmer cup off and running it full blast. I lost one fish while chemicleaning, possibly due to o2 drop (butwho knows). And point a power head at the surface :)

 

[HWDylan]

I would recommend just taking the skimmer cup off and running it full blast. I lost one fish while chemicleaning, possibly due to o2 drop (butwho knows). And point a power head at the surface :)

Its an external skimmer so I'm just adjusting the water level so it doesn't over flow.

 

[HWDylan]

Update on this issue.

I hate when I search threads and find someone having the same issue as me and the thread never got updated with what happened.

I THINK I have solved this issue.

After everything above I took my UV sterilizer offline to do some re-plumbing. I was waiting for some parts to come in the mail so the UV was not running for about a week and thats when the issue finally showed itself. Whole tank turned this gross brown color. I pulled out the microscope and sure enough... Dinos. Specifically Prorocentrum and some Coolia.

To all the guys suggesting a dino issue in this thread.... you were right I believe.

I hit them from several different angles knowing that dinos can be a nightmare to beat.

-I started by getting my UV back up and working with a higher flow rate closer to what is suggested by the manufacturer for algae (2400-3700gph).

- 2 doses a day of 3% h2o2 (1ml/10gallons). I know this is a debated topic but even if it was helping 1% it was worth it to me. I have no corals in the tank so I was able to get fairly aggressive.

- 3 day black out. Covered the tank completely so no light at all was reaching the tank. I'll say... the tank never looked so good or the water so clear as when I turned those lights back on for the first time. I am still currently ramping up the lights slowly back to where they were before the black out.

- I used a stiff brush and a MJ1200 to blow off the rocks and scrub the bottom of the tank as best I could to get as much of the stuff into the water column as possible. I really think this was one of the most important things I did. While all the gunk was blowing around in there I dosed KZ Coral Snow (a DIY version) to help bind up the free floating stuff so it could be more easily filtered out.

- I started dosing 80ml a day of Microbacter 7 in an effort to help establish good bacteria.

- Continued to dose PO4 and NO3 to keep my nutrients up and not let them bottom out which is what I think caused this whole debacle.


Amazingly over the past week and a half I have been decreasing the dosage of Alk and Cal and it the levels still continue to rise! I am down to 110ml a day (from the 240ml I was doing before) and the DKH is still climbing very slightly. This is the first time I have seen the dosage amount this low since I started dosing the tank. Very exciting!

So I guess the conclusion to this whole thing was dinos. I am not sure how they were sucking up alk and cal but it does seem to stopped once they got under control. I am by no means out of the clear yet. I have heard stories of people thinking they beat dinos into submission only to have them come roaring back in a month or 2. We will see. I have discontinued the h2o2 dosing as of last night and I am still ramping the lights back up. Hopefully my Alk and Cal consumption continues to fall.

Thanks to everyone who helped in this thread. This was (and still is) and incredibly confusing and frustrating problem. I am glad to be at a point where I am seeing positive results for the first time in a long time.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I had a similar issue when first starting one of my tanks. The alk consumption was extremely high for such a small bioload. It turned out to be the artificial rock I was using. It sucked up the alk for months before it finally stabilized. This is a common problem with ceramic rock like Aquaroche which I had used.

 

[Biddence]

Update on this issue.

I hate when I search threads and find someone having the same issue as me and the thread never got updated with what happened.

I THINK I have solved this issue.

After everything above I took my UV sterilizer offline to do some re-plumbing. I was waiting for some parts to come in the mail so the UV was not running for about a week and thats when the issue finally showed itself. Whole tank turned this gross brown color. I pulled out the microscope and sure enough... Dinos. Specifically Prorocentrum and some Coolia.

To all the guys suggesting a dino issue in this thread.... you were right I believe.

I hit them from several different angles knowing that dinos can be a nightmare to beat.

-I started by getting my UV back up and working with a higher flow rate closer to what is suggested by the manufacturer for algae (2400-3700gph).

- 2 doses a day of 3% h2o2 (1ml/10gallons). I know this is a debated topic but even if it was helping 1% it was worth it to me. I have no corals in the tank so I was able to get fairly aggressive.

- 3 day black out. Covered the tank completely so no light at all was reaching the tank. I'll say... the tank never looked so good or the water so clear as when I turned those lights back on for the first time. I am still currently ramping up the lights slowly back to where they were before the black out.

- I used a stiff brush and a MJ1200 to blow off the rocks and scrub the bottom of the tank as best I could to get as much of the stuff into the water column as possible. I really think this was one of the most important things I did. While all the gunk was blowing around in there I dosed KZ Coral Snow (a DIY version) to help bind up the free floating stuff so it could be more easily filtered out.

- I started dosing 80ml a day of Microbacter 7 in an effort to help establish good bacteria.

- Continued to dose PO4 and NO3 to keep my nutrients up and not let them bottom out which is what I think caused this whole debacle.


Amazingly over the past week and a half I have been decreasing the dosage of Alk and Cal and it the levels still continue to rise! I am down to 110ml a day (from the 240ml I was doing before) and the DKH is still climbing very slightly. This is the first time I have seen the dosage amount this low since I started dosing the tank. Very exciting!

So I guess the conclusion to this whole thing was dinos. I am not sure how they were sucking up alk and cal but it does seem to stopped once they got under control. I am by no means out of the clear yet. I have heard stories of people thinking they beat dinos into submission only to have them come roaring back in a month or 2. We will see. I have discontinued the h2o2 dosing as of last night and I am still ramping the lights back up. Hopefully my Alk and Cal consumption continues to fall.

Thanks to everyone who helped in this thread. This was (and still is) and incredibly confusing and frustrating problem. I am glad to be at a point where I am seeing positive results for the first time in a long time.

@HWDylan I know this is an old thread but i am having the exact same issues are you were going through even down to the type of bacteria you initially added.. did you completely resolve this issue? and any other steps did you take to correct