High Alk Consumption with very few corals.

[Brew12]

I'm very hesitant to mention this because I'm not a fan of the product. However..... Chemiclean contains a fairly reef safe antibiotic. If this alk/calc demand is bacterial in nature then doing a treatment with it may knock back the strain consuming the alk/calc and nutrients.

I'm not confident in this at all.... and very far from recommending it. Just throwing it out there for thought/discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t think 1 dKH per day is a problem. If you want to have less demand, let the pH drop. A difference of 0.3 pH units is the same as a doubling of alk or calcium in terms of precipitation potential. Keeping alk at 7 dKH and no higher will also help.

 

[HWDylan]

Admittedly, I'm grasping at straws, but dinos do release toxins, which could have an effect on corals and/or fish. They also suck the nitrate/phosphate out of a system, including the nitrate/phosphate one doses. In my situation, I increased the nutrients while running Rox Carbon 24/7 and changing the carbon every two weeks (carbon to hopefully remove or at least reduce toxins). It solved all of my problems.

I think we all are at this point. Its an unusual occurrence for sure. I do run ROX (in a reactor) now I just only refresh it when I notice the water looking yellowish. I will also attempt to get the NO3 and PO4 stable (and detectable) and we will see where that gets me.

I'm very hesitant to mention this because I'm not a fan of the product. However..... Chemiclean contains a fairly reef safe antibiotic. If this alk/calc demand is bacterial in nature then doing a treatment with it may knock back the strain consuming the alk/calc and nutrients.

I'm not confident in this at all.... and very far from recommending it. Just throwing it out there for thought/discussion.

I was considering this anyway just to knock out the Cyano. I'll have to watch the ammonia level since I know it can hit the biofilter as well. If nothing else it will clean up the cyano.

I don’t think 1 dKH per day is a problem. If you want to have less demand, let the pH drop. A difference of 0.3 pH units is the same as a doubling of alk or calcium in terms of precipitation potential. Keeping alk at 7 dKH and no higher will also help.

Even with nothing in the tank to consume alkalinity (that we can obviously see)? If this were the case and I had coraline growing I wouldnt worry but the fact that I am dosing 240ml a day just to maintain 7.3dkh seems very excessive. Also I had it very stable at around that level for a month or two and still no coraline and no corals would stay alive.

I guess the Alk consumption is not the issue here as much as the inability to keep corals alive. I assumed the high alk consumption was linked to the coral death. Like I said, even zoas are melting on me which usually takes a lot. My tank at work is FULL of zoas and that tank had seen some wild times (pH swings because we are a public institution, alk swings because of a faulty doser, etc) and I am not sure that I have ever lost a single coral out of that tank.

I guess it just seems odd that I can keep corals in any other tank but this one and there is this unusually high alk consumption that is occurring as well. Other than those things there is no functional difference between how I am managing this tank and any other tank I have had past or present.

 

[bdare]

BRS 2 part. I use soda ash for the alkalinity portion mixed to their specifications.




Yea, for the time being im just putting a hold on everything. Once I start back up with water changes I will. I think it's only like 1 tbs of soda ash to adjust my water mix up 1 dKH. Pretty simple to do.

If you have a CO2 scrubber keeping you pH at 8.3 and dosing soda ash I would almost guarantee some sort of precipitation. Try dosing the baking soda recipe for a week. I'll bet you a frag it fixes the problem.
Years ago I had a similar issue as you... switched and it made all the difference in the world.

 

[HWDylan]

If you have a CO2 scrubber keeping you pH at 8.3 and dosing soda ash I would almost guarantee some sort of precipitation. Try dosing the baking soda recipe for a week. I'll bet you a frag it fixes the problem.
Years ago I had a similar issue as you... switched and it made all the difference in the world.

Interesting.

Here is what I have done today:

I used an bladed algae scraper and scraped the bottom of the sump and display. It is a bare bottom display and this weird layer of "I dont know" has apparently formed. It was thick and kinda brownish green. It came off in big thick sheets that looked, honestly, almost exactly like nori sheets. I would just say its solidified detritus but I have A LOT of flow in this tank (x4 MP60 + x2 MP40) that generally keeps any free floating stuff suspended until it goes down the overflow.

After that I did a big water change (60 gallons) and sucked out as much of the cyano and gunk that I could (sump is lookin' very nice after this).

I then corrected all of my parameters to where I want them ideally or where I think would be beneficial. I went a little overboard with the Nitrate and Phosphate but I am not terribly worried about it.

Alk: 8.3
Cal: ~400
Mg: ~1500
NO3: 20ppm
PO4: 0.29

I am going to leave all the dosing offline for tonight and see where all the levels are tomorrow at this same time. That should at least give me a window into how much this tank is using.

Few side notes: Underneath that layer of gunk on the bottom of the tank there were several places that looked like coraline algae has begun to grow but stalled out (they were white).

I did as @bdare has recommended and used Bicarb instead of the soda ash for the big alkalinity correction. If the tank does indeed respond favorably to this I will switch over to that for regular dosing. The pH boost from soda ash is nice but with the CO2 scrubber (even when not dosing alk at all for days) my pH stays pretty stable between 8.1 and 8.30.

 

[Peanut]

Interesting.

Here is what I have done today:

I used an bladed algae scraper and scraped the bottom of the sump and display. It is a bare bottom display and this weird layer of "I dont know" has apparently formed. It was thick and kinda brownish green. It came off in big thick sheets that looked, honestly, almost exactly like nori sheets. I would just say its solidified detritus but I have A LOT of flow in this tank (x4 MP60 + x2 MP40) that generally keeps any free floating stuff suspended until it goes down the overflow.

After that I did a big water change (60 gallons) and sucked out as much of the cyano and gunk that I could (sump is lookin' very nice after this).

I then corrected all of my parameters to where I want them ideally or where I think would be beneficial. I went a little overboard with the Nitrate and Phosphate but I am not terribly worried about it.

Alk: 8.3
Cal: ~400
Mg: ~1500
NO3: 20ppm
PO4: 0.29

I am going to leave all the dosing offline for tonight and see where all the levels are tomorrow at this same time. That should at least give me a window into how much this tank is using.

Few side notes: Underneath that layer of gunk on the bottom of the tank there were several places that looked like coraline algae has begun to grow but stalled out (they were white).

I did as @bdare has recommended and used Bicarb instead of the soda ash for the big alkalinity correction. If the tank does indeed respond favorably to this I will switch over to that for regular dosing. The pH boost from soda ash is nice but with the CO2 scrubber (even when not dosing alk at all for days) my pH stays pretty stable between 8.1 and 8.30.

you will have to dose twice the amount of bicarb as soda ash for the same alk increase. Alk will continue to drop if you don't adjust the amount

 

[HWDylan]

you will have to dose twice the amount of bicarb as soda ash for the same alk increase. Alk will continue to drop if you don't adjust the amount

Yea I am aware of that. I use to use Bicarb years ago because baking soda is so cheap and I was trying to save money.

 

[bdare]

you will have to dose twice the amount of bicarb as soda ash for the same alk increase. Alk will continue to drop if you don't adjust the amount

True you have to dose twice as much liquid but parameters will be stable. If pH is already at 8.3 in the tank, the localized pH spike from dosing soda ash certainly lends itself to precipitation. Back in the day I had mine dosed with a liter meter over a 24 hour period and still had precipitation issues. Ever since then I've only used the bicarbonate mixture and never had issues.
To be honest I've suggested the same fix for many folks who seem to respond positively.

looking forward to myfrag...

 

[HWDylan]

looking forward to myfrag...

If I get coral growing in this tank from your suggestion than I will be more than happy to donate a frag.

 

[HWDylan]

Ok update time again:

I have been dosing normally (240ml of both Alk and Cal) and for the first day or two it not only kept the DKH pretty stable but on the 3rd day it actually started to rise a bit telling me that I am dosing more than the tank is consuming in a day. Very good!

Well today I check and the Alk has plummeted to 6.5 almost over night. That is WITH the 240ml dosing still on. Also I noted that along with it the PO4 has dropped to nearly undetectable levels (4ppb). This is extremely frustrating but I think it does have some info that is useful. PO4 and Alk both dropping that fast together is really making me think this is a Dino issue. I cant think of anything else. I know everyone keeps saying it has to be precipitation but I have seen precip before in several tanks and kinda know what it looks like. I dont even have a sand bed for it to be precipitating into and making it hard to see. There is not a single bit of precipitation on any heaters or pumps. The stuff I am thinking is Cyano must be Dinos. I have bubbles forming all over the surface of my rocks (more so than I have seen yet making me think I am having a bloom after elevating the PO4).

Ok so lets assume Dinos. Nasty issue and I have never actually dealt with them before. I set up my extra DOS head to do 10ml of PO4 liquid a day to try and keep that up along with the 15ml of KNO3 I am dosing. That should get my nutrient levels somewhat stable. I have Chemiclean, Dino x and Vibrant on the way so here is my plan.

It sounds like Dinos are a tough fight but winnable. You should hit them on several fronts at once to try and knock them out.
First: Get NO3 and PO4 stable at detectable levels (shooting for .05ish PO4 and 10-20ppm NO3).
Second: Hit the tank with Chemiclean. I have used this product before and know what to expect.
Third: Hit the tank with Dinox. Its my understanding that this works sometimes and other times it doesnt and it largely
depends on the species of dino. I dont have a microscope to ID them with so we are just gonna try it and see. I have no corals in the tank at this point, only fish, so I dont need to really worry about nuking any corals at least.
Fourth: Depending on how the first 3 steps go, I will ***** and possibly do a 3 day blackout.
Last: Start dosing Vibrant to try and establish some bacteria in the tank to out compete the Dinos. The black out and other
treatments hopefully will have them knocked back enough to give other bacteria a chance to get a foothold.


This is a pretty harsh treatment but since there are no corals in the tank I am hoping none of this will affect the fish terribly. I want to solve this here and now before I have a bunch of frags in there that I need to worry about. I'll keep an eye on ammonia since I know Chemi specifically can hit the nitrifying bacteria as well.

Any suggestions or pointers that would you guys feel are helpful for a Dino battle I would appreciate. If all of this fails I know people are experimenting with Metro as a Dino treatment so that is on the table as well.

 

[bdare]

if you're using GFO just take if offline. It's common for alk to drop with falling phosphate levels. Phosphate can inhibit coral uptake of alkalinity. As phosphate drops your corals are able to consume it faster.
Don't do too much at once...

 

[HWDylan]

if you're using GFO just take if offline. It's common for alk to drop with falling phosphate levels. Phosphate can inhibit coral uptake of alkalinity. As phosphate drops your corals are able to consume it faster.
Don't do too much at once...

No GFO and no corals in the tank.

Side note I also took the CO2 scrubber offline to let the pH fall a bit just to minimize the chances of precipitation

 

[Whipples]

Tagging along as I am interested in the solution. I had a ton of precipitation in my tank (sand, rocks, and glass) to start before those surfaces got covered with bacteria, eventually algae, and now coralline algae. I also experience significant alk consumption compared to coral load and definitely compared to calcium.

Unfortunately I don't have an easy solution for you right now, but I truly hope it is not dinos. Have you considered adding some garf grunge to the tank to help build up the biodiversity to account for the dry rock? I did two orders and it did lead to some more stability in my tank.

 

[HWDylan]

Unfortunately I don't have an easy solution for you right now, but I truly hope it is not dinos. Have you considered adding some garf grunge to the tank to help build up the biodiversity to account for the dry rock? I did two orders and it did lead to some more stability in my tank.

I have never heard of Garf Grunge. I like the concept but I have kept Aiptasia and other pests out specifically because I have been very picky about what goes into the tank. That kind of thing makes me a bit nervous. I will say there are tons of amphipods, tiny brittle stars, and bristle worms in the tank that I intentionally introduced for just such a reason. I am starting to get those tiny spirorbid worms as well in the sump.

 

[Whipples]

Good to hear you are getting the critters, always a good sign. I can say I did not get any bad hitchhikers in my order but I totally understand the concern . Maybe try another bacteria source? It helps to start coating surfaces of the tank which in my experience with precipitation slowed it down a bit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

if you're using GFO just take if offline. It's common for alk to drop with falling phosphate levels. Phosphate can inhibit coral uptake of alkalinity. As phosphate drops your corals are able to consume it faster.
Don't do too much at once...

Another part of it is the nucleation of precipitation of calcium carbonate oncthe GFO surface and diwn stream of it. Iron is known to have this effect, and some folks see it in their GFO.

 

[HWDylan]

Good to hear you are getting the critters, always a good sign. I can say I did not get any bad hitchhikers in my order but I totally understand the concern . Maybe try another bacteria source? It helps to start coating surfaces of the tank which in my experience with precipitation slowed it down a bit.

When I started the tank I used a mixture of Microbacter, Biospira, Prodibio, and those Purple Helix Coralline Algae in a bottle things.

I SHOULD have a very wide variety of bacterial species in this tank. Regardless that is specifically why I bought Vibrant.

 

[HWDylan]

Another part of it is the nucleation of precipitation of calcium carbonate oncthe GFO surface and diwn stream of it. Iron is known to have this effect, and some folks see it in their GFO.

Very Interesting....

Would dosing an Iron supplement such as Brightwell's Cheato Grow have this effect as well? I know that is primarily an iron supplement.

 

[Bpp124987]

Weird.
What’s the salinity? Probably irrelevant.


What’s going on with the skimmer now with more feeding and nutrient dosing?
Could your environment be inadvertently introducing a carbon source feeding bacteria consuming all the nutrients and alK too?

 

[HWDylan]

Weird.
What’s the salinity? Probably irrelevant.


What’s going on with the skimmer now with more feeding and nutrient dosing?
Could your environment be inadvertently introducing a carbon source feeding bacteria consuming all the nutrients and alK too?

I have tried my best to remove anything from the environment that could be causing the issue. No scented oil burners, no aerosol use around the tank, etc.

Salinity is 35ppt. Confirmed on several devices.

Skimmer does seem to be pulling more skimmate and the foam is not bubbling out the top anymore which I take as a good sign.