HLLE or combination of issues

[heitlagerm]

I've had this Purple Tang for some 25 years. First he was in a 150 gallon 6 foot tank - ideal. But I had to downsize to 80 gal 4 ft. I kept him, and it has been in there around 20 years, with a Percula, about the same age and Brittle Starfish.

Note the first pics from 2019. The dorsal fin looks fine. In the back it has had the same little notch for a few years.

Then the next pic is from July 2024. The dorsal fin started to get a dent in it. Also had HLLE scarring above both eyes

Last pics are from March 25 and this morning.

He eats fine, regular water changes, started giving him Nori for a few months (in the past wouldn't touch the stuff). Also, Chlorella flakes and Seawees extreme, and you basic pellet foods.

Don't think it is diet related though. One thing I used to do was use Two Little Fishes activated carbon. Used it for years. But on 7/25/2022 I bought 1/2 Gallon Bulk Premium ROX 0.8 Carbon from BRS. Put it in the mesh bag inside the filter socks in sump (same as I had done with the other). They Re big filter socks, and the carbon didn't seem to tumble around. But it is some time after this that I noticed the fin problem and the HLLE. But don't know if there is a connection.

Quit using activated carbon for a month now. Did notice some black dust inside the filter sock some times on past. Worse actually with the Sprung product. About to consider emptying sump and cleaning it out.

Is all of it HLLE related or could it be a combo with fin rot? Seems to be too slow progression for that.

Someone else suggested that it could be because of tank size. Hadn't been a problem in the past, but many corals have gotten bigger and he does tend to hug up under them as he passes through.

Either he still has HLLE or the scarring above his eyes are permanent.

Any ideas?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've had this Purple Tang for some 25 years. First he was in a 150 gallon 6 foot tank - ideal. But I had to downsize to 80 gal 4 ft. I kept him, and it has been in there around 20 years, with a Percula, about the same age and Brittle Starfish.

Note the first pics from 2019. The dorsal fin looks fine. In the back it has had the same little notch for a few years.

Then the next pic is from July 2024. The dorsal fin started to get a dent in it. Also had HLLE scarring above both eyes

Last pics are from March 25 and this morning.

He eats fine, regular water changes, started giving him Nori for a few months (in the past wouldn't touch the stuff). Also, Chlorella flakes and Seawees extreme, and you basic pellet foods.

Don't think it is diet related though. One thing I used to do was use Two Little Fishes activated carbon. Used it for years. But on 7/25/2022 I bought 1/2 Gallon Bulk Premium ROX 0.8 Carbon from BRS. Put it in the mesh bag inside the filter socks in sump (same as I had done with the other). They Re big filter socks, and the carbon didn't seem to tumble around. But it is some time after this that I noticed the fin problem and the HLLE. But don't know if there is a connection.

Quit using activated carbon for a month now. Did notice some black dust inside the filter sock some times on past. Worse actually with the Sprung product. About to consider emptying sump and cleaning it out.

Is all of it HLLE related or could it be a combo with fin rot? Seems to be too slow progression for that.

Someone else suggested that it could be because of tank size. Hadn't been a problem in the past, but many corals have gotten bigger and he does tend to hug up under them as he passes through.

Either he still has HLLE or the scarring above his eyes are permanent.

Any ideas?

I'd say that is a mild case of HLLE. Zebrasoma tangs tend to show it as notched fins, although they also show around the head as well (less so in yellow tangs). It might be carbon related, although ROX isn't often implicated in this, as long as it is rinsed well prior to use. The trouble is, stopping carbon use does not usually cause the symptoms to reverse, and they may continue to worsen due to carbon fines in the tank. Changing the diet rarely affects the outcome of this.

Have you seen this post?

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[W31Olds]

Wow, 25 years old, well done. Fish get old and like humans probably become vulnerable to environmental factors due to weakened immunity and Purple Tangs are known for HHLE. I might rule out Carbon and look for some other Enviromental trigger like maybe a pump or a magnet.

 

[heitlagerm]

Thanks for the quick responses! I might have seen that particular article (I - read a lot over the months). Very comprehensive.

One thing about the two fishes carbon, i did rinse it a lot more because of the dust. Not so much with the rox. Might be an issue. Also I did have a spill once but was confined in the filter sock. But who knows how much fines got in the tank.

I am going to clean out the sump and clean the sand bed (overdue anyway). I could rinse the rocks, though that would be a task. Sponges are holding everything together. I realize the effectiveness might be limited, but it is better than nothing. I hope I can halt progression.

I use a protein skimmer, but need to pay better attention to effectiveness. Continue to do water changes, 10% weekly. I wonder what that pelleted food was in the study. I have been giving them full life spectrum.

Any suggestions on testing equipment related causes? Haven't changed anything in years, including the water heater. It's as old as the tank! An Apex controls it. Just a couple if jebaos power heads and an old blue line aqua pump for circulation (replaced an older Iwaki years ago). Also a 30 year old inline chiller

Has there been any corollation with flatworms? The have been in there for years, but I had a boom in recent times. They are on the leathers. Haven't done anything to eradicate them.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Three-Cheers for a 25-year-old Tang!!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the quick responses! I might have seen that particular article (I - read a lot over the months). Very comprehensive.

One thing about the two fishes carbon, i did rinse it a lot more because of the dust. Not so much with the rox. Might be an issue. Also I did have a spill once but was confined in the filter sock. But who knows how much fines got in the tank.

I am going to clean out the sump and clean the sand bed (overdue anyway). I could rinse the rocks, though that would be a task. Sponges are holding everything together. I realize the effectiveness might be limited, but it is better than nothing. I hope I can halt progression.

I use a protein skimmer, but need to pay better attention to effectiveness. Continue to do water changes, 10% weekly. I wonder what that pelleted food was in the study. I have been giving them full life spectrum.

Any suggestions on testing equipment related causes? Haven't changed anything in years, including the water heater. It's as old as the tank! An Apex controls it. Just a couple if jebaos power heads and an old blue line aqua pump for circulation (replaced an older Iwaki years ago). Also a 30 year old inline chiller

Has there been any corollation with flatworms? The have been in there for years, but I had a boom in recent times. They are on the leathers. Haven't done anything to eradicate them.

No correlation with flatworms that I’ve ever heard of. Same with equipment - you’ll hear “stray voltage”, but that’s been ruled out as a cause.
The pellet food would have been New Life Spectrum sinking pellets. The basic flake food was done unbranded bulk food we had.

 

[heitlagerm]

Three-Cheers for a 25-year-old Tang!!

I didn't know they could live this long. I did see that 40 years is a possibility?
The photobombing Percula I bought with a 50 gallon tank around 2004. The guy said he had him for about 5 years. Funny thing is he/she/they always had a deformed gil flap (Nemo-ish)

It is funny to watch these two at feeding. Tang zooms by back and forth, and in between clown pops out of Sinularia in the middle like a wack-a-mole or a game of Frogger. Then comes the lumbering green Brittle like one of those used car lot blow up men to get his. (It has been in there since the 2000s as well. He is huge!)

The oldest animals in there are the 2 beige leather toadstools on the left back. They came out of the 150 I bought from a guy around 1995 and he had them for a number of years. Pieces of those two are probably in lots of tanks.
Funny thing is, in the past I have thought of quitting. But they just wouldn't die. They have outlived my cats! But then I got past that phase. Now I'm curious how long I CAN keep everything going, and improving. I am really glad Jay and others can help me do that!

 

[heitlagerm]

This is an update on the Purple Tang.

It seems that the HLLE is reversing. His dorsal fin shows new growth and the dip has disappeared. Now it is beginning to grow upward. Its a bit jagged. The scarring above his eyes is lessening as well.

What did I do?
Based on the thought that activated carbon use in the sump might be an issue, I completely tore the sump apart and cleaned it out. Did some uodating to it as well, with new partitions for sock, skimmer, refugium, and return - in that order. The skimmer has been working much better now but I don't think there is a connection there.

Decided, why not try the Miracle mud? Maybe it helps. It won't hurt (used it years ago)

Things I had done before but increased some - nori.

That is pretty much it. He is doing a lot better. I'm curious to what extent it will heal. I will keep this updated.

Thanks for all the help!!

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Nori was certainly a positive addition