Hobby grade fluoride test

[Tavero]

Hi there,
I am looking for a way to measure fluoride in saltwater without sending in expensive ICP oes all the time.
After figuring out that the feared "zoanthid melting syndrome" is caused by a lack of fluoride, I need a somewhat reliable way to measure the levels.

Is the Hanna checker able to measure fluoride in sea water? Or are there interference with other trace elements.
https://www.hannainst.com/hi729-fluoride-lr.html
Anyone has experience with this test or is using something else?

 

[Spare time]

Who said zoanthid melting is due to a lack of fluoride?

 

[Tavero]

Who said zoanthid melting is due to a lack of fluoride?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mystery-zoa-melt-my-search-for-a-cure-follow-my-journey.977967/
In my case it is 100% certain it was the lack of fluoride.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’d be surprised if fluoride is required by zooanthids, and I do not know how accurate that test will be in seawater, but I also do not know it won’t be accurate so it seems like it might be worth a try. :)

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

One of their other checkers states it is not for saltwater use, this one doesn't have that disclaimer so I would like to think it will work.

 

[Tavero]

Hmm.
Definitely not the answers I hoped to get. I thought maybe someone has already tried it in his reef tank and could give me a definite yes or no. I guess only the minority of reefers even bothers with dosing fluoride?

I have sent my question directly to hach lange. Hopefully I can get more information from the manufacturer.

 

[KrisReef]

Hmm.
Definitely not the answers I hoped to get. I thought maybe someone has already tried it in his reef tank and could give me a definite yes or no. I guess only the minority of reefers even bothers with dosing fluoride?

I have sent my question directly to hach lange. Hopefully I can get more information from the manufacturer.

I use prescription fluoride toothpaste and I don’t have any issues with zooanthids

 

[taricha]

yeah, sorry. Fluoride is on the list to see if there's hobby-viable testing solution. But we haven't worked on that one yet.
hanna intended use is...
"General Description & Intended Use
HI729 Fluoride Low Range handheld checker is designed to accurately determine fluoride levels in drinking water. "

quick look at the method:
"Method: Adaptation of the Standard Methods for the Examination of
Water and Wastewater, 18th Edition, SPADNS Method"

Looking at the Hach implementation [pdf] of the SPADNS method for fluoride.... (Hach does good documentation, hanna almost none.)

"Scope and application: For water, wastewater and seawater; USEPA accepted for reporting for drinking and wastewater analyses (distillation required)."
yay, works on seawater....
requires distillation :-(

The table of interferences is mostly stuff that could be handled without too much trouble. Except this one looks fatal for seawater: sulfate.

So I expect the hanna test to fail.

 

[taricha]

I use prescription fluoride toothpaste and I don’t have any issues with zooanthids

So I thought this was kinda funny. There was an earlier discussion of safe fluoride sources and so I did a quick calculation of how much of my prescription fluoride toothpaste I'd need to raise a theoretically depleted tank up to natural seawater.... I'd need half the tube! not ideal!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So I thought this was kinda funny. There was an earlier discussion of safe fluoride sources and so I did a quick calculation of how much of my prescription fluoride toothpaste I'd need to raise a theoretically depleted tank up to natural seawater.... I'd need half the tube! not ideal!

Yes, but it allows hobby resellers a new claim: whites whiter than ever!

 

[Tavero]

yay, works on seawater....
requires distillation :-(

Yeah about that. It's not the distillation that's bothering me but the required usage of 120 ml concentrated sulfuric acid for each test sample. No idea what kind of magical distillation they are using, but looking at the method, I can't imagine getting any kind of usable accuracy with a labor grade distillation apparatus out of this.

Well at least now it's certain that Hanna instrument checker won't work.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Definitely not a home diy. Creating HF gas from hot sulfuric acid sounds like a recipe for disaster.

https://www.purdue.edu/ehps/rem/laboratory/HazMat/Chemical Materials/hf.html

 

[Tavero]

Definitely not a home diy. Creating HF gas from hot sulfuric acid sounds like a recipe for disaster.

https://www.purdue.edu/ehps/rem/laboratory/HazMat/Chemical Materials/hf.html

In high concentration yes. But considering that the MAK level for gaseous HF is at 1mg/m3 it's not that dangerous at these concentrations. I would worry more about the boiling sulfuric acid.

Regardless, considering the losses I usually get during distillations, I have no idea how to get reliable results with this method even with a fully equipped laboratory.

 

[hunterallen40]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mystery-zoa-melt-my-search-for-a-cure-follow-my-journey.977967/
In my case it is 100% certain it was the lack of fluoride.

Could we circle back to this? Is there a specific claim in here that indicates your fluoride levels are at all relevant to the zoas?

I'm not convinced. I dose fluoride regularly (adjusting based on ICP), but have not seen my zoas care one way or another about that element's concentration.

 

[Tavero]

Could we circle back to this? Is there a specific claim in here that indicates your fluoride levels are at all relevant to the zoas?

I'm not convinced. I dose fluoride regularly (adjusting based on ICP), but have not seen my zoas care one way or another about that element's concentration.

What do you want to hear? If you are looking for a external source, the explanation of Tropic Marine which describes some symptoms of zoa melting syndrome is the only thing I can offer:

"A too low fluorine concentration shows itself in dull tissue, reduced growth, colourless growth peaks or growth edges in foliaceous growing corals (e.g. Montipora species) and partial light sensitivity. Furthermore, the animals become more susceptible to parasitic infestation. The skeleton softens considerably. At a Florine level under 0,8 mg/Liter (o,26gal) some SPS corals showed slow tissue necrosis from the base."

Except for that, I have only my own experience to show for. I was dealing with melting zoas for over 2 years and tried everything to stop it. Full tank restart with rip clean inclusive. Nothing worked, but as soon as I started dosing fluoride, my zoas stopped shrinking. That's proof enough for me that fluoride is necessary for zoanthids and dosing it is what fixed my issues. If you have another idea and want to contribute to the problems solution, I'm all ears but not here. There is a dedicated tread about the zoa melting syndrome. This one is about hobby grade fluoride tests.

 

[hunterallen40]

What do you want to hear? If you are looking for a external source, the explanation of Tropic Marine which describes some symptoms of zoa melting syndrome is the only thing I can offer:

"A too low fluorine concentration shows itself in dull tissue, reduced growth, colourless growth peaks or growth edges in foliaceous growing corals (e.g. Montipora species) and partial light sensitivity. Furthermore, the animals become more susceptible to parasitic infestation. The skeleton softens considerably. At a Florine level under 0,8 mg/Liter (o,26gal) some SPS corals showed slow tissue necrosis from the base."

Except for that, I have only my own experience to show for. I was dealing with melting zoas for over 2 years and tried everything to stop it. Full tank restart with rip clean inclusive. Nothing worked, but as soon as I started dosing fluoride, my zoas stopped shrinking. That's proof enough for me that fluoride is necessary for zoanthids and dosing it is what fixed my issues. If you have another idea and want to contribute to the problems solution, I'm all ears but not here. There is a dedicated tread about the zoa melting syndrome. This one is about hobby grade fluoride tests.

I think you are misinterpreting my curiosity for opposition. I'm glad you found something that works, I'm just more intrigued by why that would work.

Fluoride makes sense for Stony corals skeletal strength. Anecdotally, I have also seen that my tricolor valida in particular shows more of a blue coloration when I dose it. I don't like associating elements to color change, but for that specific acropora and this specific element, I do notice a difference (again, anecdotally).

I am just wondering if anyone knows or could provide any explanation as to how this is relevant to zoanthus. It is just not a correlation I would have expected.

 

[Tavero]

I think you are misinterpreting my curiosity for opposition. I'm glad you found something that works, I'm just more intrigued by why that would work.

Fluoride makes sense for Stony corals skeletal strength. Anecdotally, I have also seen that my tricolor valida in particular shows more of a blue coloration when I dose it. I don't like associating elements to color change, but for that specific acropora and this specific element, I do notice a difference (again, anecdotally).

I am just wondering if anyone knows or could provide any explanation as to how this is relevant to zoanthus. It is just not a correlation I would have expected.

I'm no Biologist but if I had to guess I would say "Furthermore, the animals become more susceptible to parasitic infestation" sounds like it maybe affects the immune system. Or the physical resistance of the tissue against bacterial infections. This would line up with the situations where treating some zoa frags with antibiotics, showed some small temporary improvement. Also zoas that were already in the progress of shrinking take forever to recover. maybe because they are now able to fight the disease but are still fighting?

Just assumptions though.