How do you handle chemical warfare between nems?

[Daniel@R2R]

You guys with multiple anemones in one tank? Do you ever have a problem with chemical warfare between nems? How do you deal with that? Is running carbon the best solution?

 

[SeahorseKeeper]

I have had RBTA and h. Crispa together. I always ran carbon.

 

[FlyinBryan]

Yes and I pulled them all out! Problem solved! :)

 

[mfinn]

I've never heard of chemical warfare between anemones. You mean like you would have with leather corals?
I've keep a couple different anemones before and never had a problem.
I'm sure if a rbta were to move over next to a carpet, there would be warfare.
Since anemones have stinging cells to use as defense, I assumed this was it for them.

 

[geckoejon]

"chemical warefare" between nems is a myth... however... nems do send out a kind of chemical scent, if you will, that lets other nems know they are there. this scent does not and can not do any harm to other nems :)

i actually read an article a little while back stating that running carbon will help to eliminate that scent. personally, i run carobon and gfo on my duplex, but not on my cube or reef tank which both contain multiple nems.

i currently have a bta, lt, and a crispa in the same 34g cube. they have all stayed in the same spot since adding them, and all appear to be thriving...

 

[geckoejon]

i did find a good explanation of what nems do have....

"The definition of allelopathy:
Allelopathy is a biological phenomenon by which an organism produces one or more biochemicals that influence the growth, survival, and reproduction of other organisms. These biochemicals are known as allelochemicals and can have beneficial (positive allelopathy) or detrimental (negative allelopathy) effects on the target organisms. Allelochemicals are a subset of secondary metabolites, which are not required for metabolism (i.e. growth, development and reproduction) of the allelopathic organism.
Allelopathy is characteristic of certain plants, algae, bacteria, coral, and fungi.

Anemones might have chemical weapons (I'm not sure that they do!) but they DEFINITELY conduct physical warfare.
They use nematocysts- their microscopic harpoons. They can shed nematocysts into the water column. They can choose NOT to shed nematocysts as well.
Anemones (different spcies) need not actually touch to harm one another and they can certainly sense the presence of another anemone.
That doesn't necessarily mean they will feel threatened enough to release nematocysts en masse.
A good filtration system might keep the number of shed nematocysts down to a minimum.
This might explain why some people can keep different anemone species together and others cannot."

Host anemones allopathic interactions - Reef Central Online Community

notice the "might". i have read and heard many people's opinions, but have not seen any proof of chemical warfare. maybe i have missed something? maybe op was referring to nematocysts, which is different imo then chemical warfare.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Thanks for the input, guys!

i did find a good explanation of what nems do have....

"The definition of allelopathy:
Allelopathy is a biological phenomenon by which an organism produces one or more biochemicals that influence the growth, survival, and reproduction of other organisms. These biochemicals are known as allelochemicals and can have beneficial (positive allelopathy) or detrimental (negative allelopathy) effects on the target organisms. Allelochemicals are a subset of secondary metabolites, which are not required for metabolism (i.e. growth, development and reproduction) of the allelopathic organism.
Allelopathy is characteristic of certain plants, algae, bacteria, coral, and fungi.

Anemones might have chemical weapons (I'm not sure that they do!) but they DEFINITELY conduct physical warfare.
They use nematocysts- their microscopic harpoons. They can shed nematocysts into the water column. They can choose NOT to shed nematocysts as well.
Anemones (different spcies) need not actually touch to harm one another and they can certainly sense the presence of another anemone.
That doesn't necessarily mean they will feel threatened enough to release nematocysts en masse.
A good filtration system might keep the number of shed nematocysts down to a minimum.
This might explain why some people can keep different anemone species together and others cannot."

Host anemones allopathic interactions - Reef Central Online Community

notice the "might". i have read and heard many people's opinions, but have not seen any proof of chemical warfare. maybe i have missed something? maybe op was referring to nematocysts, which is different imo then chemical warfare.

^^^this is good info. I honestly would have considered waterborne nematocysts to be chemical warfare. I guess that may be what I was thinking of when I asked the question. I was thinking some kind of attack that did not involve direct contact of tentacles (what we typically think of in stinging each other, etc.). Great points and useful info!

 

[geckoejon]

Thanks for the input, guys!

^^^this is good info. I honestly would have considered waterborne nematocysts to be chemical warfare. I guess that may be what I was thinking of when I asked the question. I was thinking some kind of attack that did not involve direct contact of tentacles (what we typically think of in stinging each other, etc.). Great points and useful info!

agreed, that is good info. i am always trying to read and learn myself. i'm far from an expert though. if you come across any more info, please share.

my only experience are with bta's, lt's, sebaes, and rock nems. i'm looking for my first gig locally. i have read several people stating that they had issues mixing other different types of nems and others reporting that they mixed successfully.makes me wonder if there were other contributing factors. i am not aware of anyone having proof though. seems like it would be more consistent if it was an issue. know what i mean? i might be wrong though.

 

[DFW]

I had more than 20 rose bubbles doing very nicely in a 29 gallon that is plumbed to several other tanks. They were doing very nicely for a couple of years until I added a "kryptonite" green bubble tip. Within 4 months time, the rose bubbles had started shrinking, and completely stopped taking food. Every one of them died, while the kryptonite split, and ate like pigs. Nematocycts in the water column apparently did the rose bubbles in.

 

[Trex]

"chemical warefare" between nems is a myth... however... nems do send out a kind of chemical scent, if you will, that lets other nems know they are there. this scent does not and can not do any harm to other nems :)

i actually read an article a little while back stating that running carbon will help to eliminate that scent. personally, i run carobon and gfo on my duplex, but not on my cube or reef tank which both contain multiple nems.

i currently have a bta, lt, and a crispa in the same 34g cube. they have all stayed in the same spot since adding them, and all appear to be thriving...

Anything to back up your claim that it is a "myth" ?


While it is purely anecdotal, I have had issues keeping an S. haddoni and M. doreensis together. Over 10 years ago I had a settled in S. haddoni (( in my care for 5 years at that point )), in a 75, that hadn't moved in years. Moved a 2 year old M. doreensis from one of my other tanks to the 75. Within days the S. haddoni was moving around the tank, looking "off" and generally not healthy looking. Ended up removing the M. doreensis, and did a series of water changes, the S. haddoni went back to its previous state --- no other changes made during the time the 2 species were together.



I have never had issues with different color morphs of the same anemone species, even when touching.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I had an S. gigantea that was growing and thriving for about a year (after coming from another reefers tank where it was for an extended period). Then I added a second gigantea.

Over the next couple of years, the original began to slowly shrink while the second one grew several fold in size. They never came closer thqn about 2 feet.

Below is a pic of the setup.

I suspect, but do not know, obviously, that the new addition somehow bothered the original. Was it something the anemone did, or a pathogen brought in with it? I do not know.

 

[geckoejon]

fdw, you don't think this might have been caused by a pathogen? maybe brought by the new bta and it was immune to it?

trex, maybe i should have stated "theory" instead. my bad... i don't have proof, but i have yet to find any proof to prove that chemical warfare is real. i haven't every read anything other than theory about "chemical warfare". your own story is one of them, imo. how do you know that it wasn't nematocysts, unless you are considering that "chemical warfare"? another theory for your situation, how do you know that it didn't smell, if you will, the other nem and want to get away? either of those is entirely different than releasing a chemical that will harm another anemone. i don't see that situation proving anything other than they apparently did not like to settle in the same tank.

randy holmes-farley, beautiful tank and gigs! i was actually hoping that you would chime in on this. i have read numerous post of yours that are excellent. i thought maybe you would have heard of some proof one way or the other. the stories i have read / heard seem to differ greatly. some are about the same type of anemone, and some from differing types of anemone.

 

[Trex]

fdw, you don't think this might have been caused by a pathogen? maybe brought by the new bta and it was immune to it?

trex, maybe i should have stated "theory" instead. my bad... i don't have proof, but i have yet to find any proof to prove that chemical warfare is real. i haven't every read anything other than theory about "chemical warfare". your own story is one of them, imo. how do you know that it wasn't nematocysts, unless you are considering that "chemical warfare"? another theory for your situation, how do you know that it didn't smell, if you will, the other nem and want to get away? either of those is entirely different than releasing a chemical that will harm another anemone. i don't see that situation proving anything other than they apparently did not like to settle in the same tank.

randy holmes-farley, beautiful tank and gigs! i was actually hoping that you would chime in on this. i have read numerous post of yours that are excellent. i thought maybe you would have heard of some proof one way or the other. the stories i have read / heard seem to differ greatly. some are about the same type of anemone, and some from differing types of anemone.

The nematocyst, would be released by either chemical or physical cues, there was no contact between the anemones, so that excludes the physical cue. So, if nematocyst were in play, they would have been released by chemical cues, which (( IMO )) is chemical warfare.

As for the "smell", that term is a bit of a reach, but will continue for this part. For the other anemone to be able to "smell" the other one, a chemical would have had been released by anemone A, which would cause anemone B to move. That, would be another form of chemical warfare.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

randy holmes-farley, beautiful tank and gigs! i was actually hoping that you would chime in on this. i have read numerous post of yours that are excellent. i thought maybe you would have heard of some proof one way or the other. the stories i have read / heard seem to differ greatly. some are about the same type of anemone, and some from differing types of anemone.

Thanks. :)

FWIW, I've not seen any scientific evidence of allelopathy in S. gigantea or other host anemones.

It is known that Condylactis gigantea releases a substance that inhibits algae growth nearby. I do not know what impact it might have on other organisms.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00379877

 

[Daniel@R2R]

The nematocyst, would be released by either chemical or physical cues, there was no contact between the anemones, so that excludes the physical cue. So, if nematocyst were in play, they would have been released by chemical cues, which (( IMO )) is chemical warfare.

As for the "smell", that term is a bit of a reach, but will continue for this part. For the other anemone to be able to "smell" the other one, a chemical would have had been released by anemone A, which would cause anemone B to move. That, would be another form of chemical warfare.

This is kind of what I was thinking too. Thanks for stating it in such a great way! :thumb:

 

[ygon]

Anything to back up your claim that it is a "myth" ?


While it is purely anecdotal, I have had issues keeping an S. haddoni and M. doreensis together. Over 10 years ago I had a settled in S. haddoni (( in my care for 5 years at that point )), in a 75, that hadn't moved in years. Moved a 2 year old M. doreensis from one of my other tanks to the 75. Within days the S. haddoni was moving around the tank, looking "off" and generally not healthy looking. Ended up removing the M. doreensis, and did a series of water changes, the S. haddoni went back to its previous state --- no other changes made during the time the 2 species were together.



I have never had issues with different color morphs of the same anemone species, even when touching.

I had a similar experience with a BBTA. I had two long time BBTA in my tank a rose and a green. I added a third rainbow nem, within a few days he moved right up next to the green one, a few days later it started melting and died. About a week after that it did that same thing with my red bta, same results melted a week later.

 

[KorD]

I have five different types of nems in my tank.. I do not run carbon either and nor have I had any problems with them... Well except for the occasional walking into each other if they feel like moving.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have five different types of nems in my tank.. I do not run carbon either and nor have I had any problems with them... Well except for the occasional walking into each other if they feel like moving.

Which types?

 

[geckoejon]

The nematocyst, would be released by either chemical or physical cues, there was no contact between the anemones, so that excludes the physical cue. So, if nematocyst were in play, they would have been released by chemical cues, which (( IMO )) is chemical warfare.

As for the "smell", that term is a bit of a reach, but will continue for this part. For the other anemone to be able to "smell" the other one, a chemical would have had been released by anemone A, which would cause anemone B to move. That, would be another form of chemical warfare.

i can see it from your perspective... myself, i would consider allelopathy such as with leather corals to be chemical warfare. sensing, smelling, taking chemical cues ect... that another anemone is in the area and then releasing a physical irritant as in nematocysts, i would consider more of a physical attack. sending a physical little dart / harpoon is different than releasing a chemical that will cause harm to another nem, imo. a physical irritant that might cause an anemone to sense another nem and want to get away is much different than being harmed by a chemical that is released. i guess we have different interpretations of that.

Thanks. :)

FWIW, I've not seen any scientific evidence of allelopathy in S. gigantea or other host anemones.

It is known that Condylactis gigantea releases a substance that inhibits algae growth nearby. I do not know what impact it might have on other organisms.

Allelopathic interaction between a reef coelenterate and benthic algae - Springer

thanks for the info. that is very interesting...

 

[justchillinuno]

I Have a pink bta and a rbta a foot apart. No issues and my clowns love both in my 90g. Moved next to each other after a tank upgrade.