How often do I put ammonia in to cycle a tank?

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LeChef

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I have a 40 gallon display with a 20 gallon long tank and was wondering how often I need or should put bottled ammonia in the tank. I put a teaspoon and a half in on Wednesday and not exactly sure if I put the same amount or a few drops in. I also used fritz turbo start in the beginning if that's important.
 
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brandon429

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dont add more that's enough you are already done.

fritz is at maximum 24-48 hour cycling bac, we've tested it endlessly. it doesnt even matter if you feed it or not.

post a pic of your tank, do a water change and you can begin reefing. that's the costliest bottle bac for a reason.

*nothing you read about cycling online applies to bottle bac cycles...the wait times of 30 days etc that's all a mix of various cycle approaches and it can get confusing.

for exactly what you've posted, yours is done though.

post a pic of your tank so we can make sure there's enough rock and sand in contact w the water bac mix.

there are ways to assess if your bottle bac was dead and didnt work, since i havent had that happen to me not once in any cycle I've worked we're likely in the clear :)

pics first, before params.
 

Azedenkae

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I have a 40 gallon display with a 20 gallon long tank and was wondering how often I need or should put bottled ammonia in the tank. I put a teaspoon and a half in on Wednesday and not exactly sure if I put the same amount or a few drops in. I also used fritz turbo start in the beginning if that's important.
Just gotta add in 2ppm (or whatever the target ammonia expected to be oxidized a day is) each time ammonia reads 0 (or 0.25ppm if you use the API ammonia test kit), and then stop when it reduces to 0 (or 0.25) within 24 hours. And then you are done! :D

(Not considering nitrites).
 
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LeChef

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dont add more that's enough you are already done.

fritz is at maximum 24-48 hour cycling bac, we've tested it endlessly. it doesnt even matter if you feed it or not.

post a pic of your tank, do a water change and you can begin reefing. that's the costliest bottle bac for a reason.

*nothing you read about cycling online applies to bottle bac cycles...the wait times of 30 days etc that's all a mix of various cycle approaches and it can get confusing.

for exactly what you've posted, yours is done though.

post a pic of your tank so we can make sure there's enough rock and sand in contact w the water bac mix.

there are ways to assess if your bottle bac was dead and didnt work, since i havent had that happen to me not once in any cycle I've worked we're likely in the clear :)

pics first, before params.
 

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brandon429

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Nice.

if you search out Dr Reefs 90 page bottle bac thread, you w see massive repeat testing of the various brands and the whole point was to test deposition and adherence time for the dosed bac, you bought the best one. Even though your tank can carry a bioload its time to decide on how you add fish


two ways exist:

not using a quarantine approach



using a quarantine approach.

facts: about 98% of reefs are setup without qt because who wants to go through all that.

all their fish are dead within eight months, about 90% of those skipping qt and fallow preps

*your type of cycle already completes the fallow portion, you’ve not added any contaminants yet that’s a big deal*


so you can either buy pre quarantined fish, and have today’s best fish preservation, or you can complete the quarantine portion yourself. That’s a critical step you’re at, first bioload you add changes your fallow ability.

if any key terms dont make sense, this forum describes it all:


I’ll tell you why people love to debate qt/no qt, and it’s because online debate is easy compared to what Jay does there daily for fish disease control.

arm chair quarterbacking ends when you are the very person asked to cure a disease, so study Jays methods and see how nobody else in the forum is making headway, but he is for pages? That ends all qt/non qt debates.
 

brandon429

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If it was possible to set up dry start reefs without qt and fallow, it seems that linked forum above would be less busy every second of the day for five years.


I find this to be the pressing matter in today’s cycling.

it’s not about stalls or ammonia risk, these dosers have that down pat.


it’s about disease vectoring and massive fish wipeouts we can predict like clockwork within eight months after the cycle/ability to carry a bioload.

all my cycling troubleshoots here on out will be disease vector discussions, that’s the hidden risk today, any decent forum pattern prognosticator will tell you.
 

brandon429

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There is no display tank doser or food additive that can help you. Garlic is for spaghetti


what works in reefs and zoos had been clearly linked above…mentioning this since some folks buy display dosers that are supposed to replace qt and fallow


for pages, not used in the work thread for disease…that’s where we check for reality vs forum trending.


what we get told by trending is NOT the same disease prevention being applied daily, where the real need is. Only one guy steps up there, Humblefish was the prior custodian of the forum.
 
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LeChef

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If it was possible to set up dry start reefs without qt and fallow, it seems that linked forum above would be less busy every second of the day for five years.


I find this to be the pressing matter in today’s cycling.

it’s not about stalls or ammonia risk, these dosers have that down pat.


it’s about disease vectoring and massive fish wipeouts we can predict like clockwork within eight months after the cycle/ability to carry a bioload.

all my cycling troubleshoots here on out will be disease vector discussions, that’s the hidden risk today, any decent forum pattern prognosticator will tell you.
Wow I never new that around 90% that don't quarantine have issues down the road, thanks for the info ill definitely have to setup a quarantine tank in a few weeks, luckily I'm in no rush for fish or coral and this hobby has actually taught me lots of patience haha.
 
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NeonRabbit221B

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Wow I never new that around 90% that don't quarantine have issues down the road, thanks for the info ill definitely have to setup a quarantine tank in a few weeks, luckily I'm in no rush for fish or coral and this hobby has actually taught me lots of patience haha.
He is fear mongering. QT is preferred, especially with larger tanks (more chance for an outbreak and more livestock to lose) but its not necessary and 90% is a number he pulled out of his 1 gallon pico reef.

I would suggest following @Azedenkae advice and testing to ensure you are back down to zero. Redose if you plan to add a large bioload. This is a safer method then what I personally do but to Brandon's point, cycling science is changing and I usually consider myself cycled long before I can do 2 ppm in 24 hours. Judging by Seneye (ammonia/ph monitors) in a fully stocked tank you only need to process .25-.5 ppm to handle fish respiration/feedings (honestly this is at most unless a fish dies).

Either way, make sure you do a large water change to remove nitrates/nitrites and any remaining ammonia before adding fish :)
Basically don't dump fish into a 1 ppm ammonia tank and you likely don't need to continue dosing ammonia. Let things settle and continue on!
 

brandon429

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fear mongering is another word for you dont have any cures logged in the forum linked, keep in mind that pressing detail :)

then again neither do I.

but I think those patterns are just gold for where work is getting done, no two people will ever agree on quarantining.


it'd be nice to get some diversity in work done, in the above forum. that can't be done from the couch though. well technically it can but figuratively if someone else other than Jay provided some actual cures that would be neat to see.
 

Azedenkae

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He is fear mongering. QT is preferred, especially with larger tanks (more chance for an outbreak and more livestock to lose) but its not necessary and 90% is a number he pulled out of his 1 gallon pico reef.

I would suggest following @Azedenkae advice and testing to ensure you are back down to zero. Redose if you plan to add a large bioload. This is a safer method then what I personally do but to Brandon's point, cycling science is changing and I usually consider myself cycled long before I can do 2 ppm in 24 hours. Judging by Seneye (ammonia/ph monitors) in a fully stocked tank you only need to process .25-.5 ppm to handle fish respiration/feedings (honestly this is at most unless a fish dies).

Either way, make sure you do a large water change to remove nitrates/nitrites and any remaining ammonia before adding fish :)
Basically don't dump fish into a 1 ppm ammonia tank and you likely don't need to continue dosing ammonia. Let things settle and continue on!
Yep. All of this. Even as I suggest 2ppm/a day, I do admit the science is changing and it is pointing to a lot less nitrification capability is needed, at least in a reef tank. It is still a safe point to reach though if possible, just in case anything out of the ordinary happens. But yeah nah. I've set up four long-term marine aquariums in my life time, pretty sure if the 90% number is correct I'd have had at least three of those four tanks be wiped out.
 

NeonRabbit221B

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fear mongering is another word for you dont have any cures logged in the forum linked, keep in mind that pressing detail :)

then again neither do I.

but I think those patterns are just gold for where work is getting done, no two people will ever agree on quarantining.


it'd be nice to get some diversity in work done, in the above forum. that can't be done from the couch though. well technically it can but figuratively if someone else other than Jay provided some actual cures that would be neat to see.
So you didn't make up that ridiculous figure?

Yep. All of this. Even as I suggest 2ppm/a day, I do admit the science is changing and it is pointing to a lot less nitrification capability is needed, at least in a reef tank. It is still a safe point to reach though if possible, just in case anything out of the ordinary happens. But yeah nah. I've set up four long-term marine aquariums in my life time, pretty sure if the 90% number is correct I'd have had at least three of those four tanks be wiped out.
I would be doomed for sure! lol Ich killed my jumping YWG too, the carpet fuzz on him was just a symptom.
 

brandon429

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Here’s where the figure comes from:

the rate of new posts daily in the disease forum where only Jay gets his hands dirty and earns follow up reports of a strong retention rate compared to feedback I get in posts and in messages on completed cycles using no prep

especially in white rock setups

especially in retail fed tanks


I don’t report things in reefing that people like or accept lol

its merely reported trending, from one heck of a dedicated trend watcher. The most neutral way to evaluate the claim is to work some posts in the disease forum so we can see the better way live time, we will then track your outcomes to check for patterns.
 

brandon429

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Hey I noticed more threads getting fixed by Jay today, and you two still sitting on the couch doing nothing

why is that neon…any chance you might step up live time today in the fish disease forum, tell a poster not to qt, then stay around until they’re fixed up and we can see results?

taking bets on your action

post something impressive here, one single works done to completion among Jays scrolls of works would be a fair start for your claims
 

brandon429

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when I read the disease forum yesterday and today, I don’t see anyone initially posting against qt practices, then clarifying it that way above, what I’m seeing is simply qt and fallow methods used by Jay live time in response to help requests, and he’s not hesitating.

and every day twenty new help threads show up which factors into the rates of loss initially stated.

if we check back in two weeks, I think it’s fair to say the trending there will hold in place but also 2-4 more qt debate threads will happen in other forums, far away from where the help is needed. It’s important to see that separations between claims and action. Seems ideal the next time you’re asked by a new reefer about qt options, you might link the disease thread so they can see the most up to date options vs opinions
 
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