How to distinguish information from misinformation?

I had four books read before I took a stab at it. I bought an AIO that enabled me to learn the ins and outs of the system well. I had a large volume tank, did weekly water changes, and I have ocd, so my thought processes are critical, I evaluate, write stuff down, try to stay efficient and a few steps ahead of the tank. I didn’t use forums in 2016 when I started. When I joined R2R, I loved so much of the valid information I felt I could work with. My contributions here are whimsical, this is my early morning escape often with an Americano, and I can offer some solid advice, but in good nature, take me like a grain of reef salt. I love community, so having friendly commenters draws me back. Never get complacent in this hobby, adhere to what works in your setup, always strive to do it better, ask yourself when struggling, “how can I be smarter about this” and the real experts do shine here at R2R for giving great direction to keep you reefing.
 
It is amazing how much information is at our fingertips and how communication is more efficient than ever. Funny how powerful this is, to the point of it being a detriment in a lot of ways.

I would still take it over the alternative... An isolated fragmented, centralized hobby. I will gladly consume a cannon blast of decentralized disinformation, anecdotal experiences, post hoc ergo propter hoc and the like - just to sink my teeth into all the amazing stories, experiences and finds and claims.

It is wild the first person who added fluconazole to a tank for example - whoever they were. That was a huge risk or maybe it was a calculated galaxy brain move based off a decade of high level reefing experience. It doesn't matter if I choose to use it on hsir algae or bryopsis (although I have in the past and it did work for me) the story in the end is more is more interesting.

After all it is just a hobby. There is so many facets to this hobby it seems never ending. That is what makes it exciting. It really does seem like chess, maybe there are as many combinations of things that can be done - each one with a new result - as there are moves on a chess board. When you zoom out people at the top of the hobby who push forward seem to be getting better results just like top modern chess players.

I think as a new reefer finding the people with insane tanks and learning their philosophy rather than any one thing, will guide you through the "muddy river" of products and decisions. It is a guiding voice in your head that hatches it helps you attempt to think critically and clearly ask yourself what you are trying to achieve.

This is why my favorite form of content has been podcasts - huge shout out to Reef Beef, Reef Therapy, and Rappin with Reef Bum. Regardless of the "right or wrong" - walking away with the stories and conversations is where it is at. It is surprising how much I retain from thst.
But does it?

Outcomes and understanding are two very different things.

This thread is about misinformation, not outcomes. People often conflate the two and say, “Well, there are many ways to do something,” as an excuse to avoid calling misinformation what it is. Or they simply cannot identify it as misinformation themselves. That is much of the problem here.

“I do an 80% water change after a cycle, and I wait for nitrate to be zero before adding fish because nitrate is toxic to marine fish. It always works for me because I have never lost a fish.”

That conflates an outcome with the factual information being passed along. Nitrate is not toxic at any reasonable or attainable level to marine fish. The water change may or may not be beneficial for other reasons, but the explanation being propagated is misinformation. It doesn't matter that the advice is not likely harmful, the damage is promoting that water changes must be done to reduce nitrate after a cycle to prevent nitrate toxicity. It is nonsense passed along here daily.

Things like this are part of the reason new reef keepers are mired in nonsense before they ever put a drop of water in their first tank:

You must dump in bottles of bacteria to cycle.
You must keep dumping in bottles of stuff to have “biodiversity.”
You must buy a PAR meter.
You must do ICP tests at least once a month.
You must dose trace elements.
You must dose N and P and maintain Redfield ratios.
You must get DNA testing done.
Don’t forget your amino acid supplements.
Don't forget all of the magic potions.

Every one of those topics, and the resulting “must-have” logic, is dominated by passed on misinformation conflated with outcomes.



I think that can be a tool, but here are countless reliable sources that do not have “build threads.” A nice tank may show that someone can keep a nice tank. It does not automatically make their explanations correct, nor does the absence of a build thread make someone’s information wrong.

Me: I don't pay much attention to people's tank photos or use the photo rank that person on a reefing knowledge scale. Some people have a knack for things without really every understanding much about them, others get lucky, and some have vast expertise and have a bad run.

in any case, I think the thread is straying from the topic:
This thread is about misinformation, not outcomes.

Claude from FM is a prime example. He maintains beautiful tanks. He has a tremendous following of people who repeat anything he says as reefing fact because he packages everything he says as “reefing science,” and his tanks are beautiful.

The problem is that much of what Claude says is demonstrably pseudoscientific nonsense, and it is amplified by his followers because they trust what he says based on his results. It gains authority through both volume and outcome, but it is still misinformation.

His methods and products are not the issue. The misinformation that he authoritatively pumps into the collective knowledge of the hobby is.

Maybe some of you don’t care what is misinformation and only care about outcomes. Fair enough. But don’t argue when somebody can substantiate that the information you are providing to others is misinformation.
Good points. This kind of left me pondering the harm of misinformation as well as the different levels of misinformation. How truths can be nested in statements but if the conclusion is warped than the advice is misled.

Generally a reefer is using information they come across to guide a decision that they don't have direct experience with. Whether that be a pest problem, a design or an approach. Sometimes a misguided decision can cause loss of life to our pets. Other times it is simply getting "scammed" or reducing the velocity of reefing - wasting time or money.

In the hobby there are a lot important best practices that should be consistent with no room for interpretation. Kalkwasser handling comes to mind. Nobody argues the science of how dkh is boosted from the hydroxide reaction in the saltwater and many reefers have tested the maximum amount they can add at one time before observing a drop in dkh from precipitation. The former I had to learn from an expert and the latter was learned from personal experience.

But even something so cut and dry like a simple chemical reaction becomes fuzzy when you apply it to the hobby as a choice or decision. You need a goal first or a context of what you want to do with the scientific facts - a lot of times the application is where it gets messy - you can't just tell someone "this is what you should do!"

"As a best practice you need a kalk reactor and an expensive continuous duty peristaltic pump to dose"

That is such a blanket statement and not good advice because what is the new reefer even trying to achieve? Do they have time for maintenance, do they have space for a bigger reservoir, are you on a budget? Is your tank established or are they new frags? You have a stirrer and you need to add powder - you have a reservoir and you need to change mixed solution. What are the implications if you forget either and how is that impacting your life - your routine or your schedule. Do you get an aqualift and pump rodi through a diaphragm pump with a check valve into a stirrer and time the ml/min drip using gravity into the sump? Do you have a sump? Why buy all this gear you can just add 45 grams per 50 gallons every hour by hand - do you have a job? It gets crazy when it is time to suggest any course of action on anything even if it is fact based in tested science. And everyone's methods are different - with the kalk example there are so many reasons to dose it or not dose it - are you pegging it to pH to avoid swings and don't care about salinity swings or are you boosting dkh and testing it off that

I can go on and on

Take my anecdotal experience with peppermint shrimp. They ate aptasia for me in a 40 gallon nano and it was amazing. After observing them prodding and poking LPS- not so much. It was a pain to catch the three. They cleared all my aptasia and I didn't find another in my display (though they were likely still there) but the observable immediate pest problem was gone.

I've never had a larger system than that 40 nano. if I had a 200 gallon tank would I put 30 in or suggest that to someone? Probably not. Though it is a fact that the ones I had ate the aptasia. If I lazily told all the new reefers I encountered to rush out and try peppermint shrimp I would still see that as misinformation or misinformed advice - without knowing the context of what the reefer wants or their goals.

Everything doesn't have to be science science science and a lot of the hobby is taking risks and shooting off the hip which is fun. But if somebody is expecting a straight cut and dry answer on anything maybe the best advice is a slap to the face wake up call. Those don't exist here.
 
Unfortunately the vast majority of people with reef tanks have only been in the hobby for 4 or 5 years and although their experience is helpful, in that short time they could have only had one or maybe two of a specific creature so they may not know what a success is.

To me, a success is when a creature dies of old age and nothing else and for most fish, that is 10, 20 or 30 years. A year or two keeping a Moorish Idol is not a success as that fish should live probably 15 years. Clownfish can live into their 40s.

But if someone has a successful tank for 15 or 20 years and they are not always on the disease forum, they know success and their opinions would carry far more weight. That person would have also dealt with many times all the pests, algae, cyano, and diatoms and know what worked and what didn't.

You can buy all the gadgets you find on forums, but only experience or the experience from an experienced hobbyist can help you. 😎
 
Proof is not always a visible display.

I too think this mantra is really not a suitable way to decide if advice is good at all. People say it all the time, and I strongly disagree.

First, it implies the advice is being used on the build tank, which is very often not the case. I give advice in a huge array of things not used in my personal tank, and very little of my advice is based on my personal tank experience.

Second, it implies the advice is actually beneficial to the build tank, which it may not be. The build tank may be successful even with some poor choices being implemented.

Finally, it assumes the build author understands what they did well enough to grasp the complexity of whether it translates well to other systems. I know with certainty that this assumption is often not true.

None of this means I have any magic way to discern misinformation. I just don’t think this is a good way. For sure it’s not a foolproof way.
 
One this is for sure the hobby can be very unpredictable and nothing is certain in a good way. Bad things can be expected good things not so much with surprises round every corner. Just because one person can't do something dosen't mean the next person can't.

Some may say "you can't do that, I tried and failed" while somebody else may have been doing the same thing with success for quite sometime. Then we have the issue of did the failure happen because the person didn't do it right. There is often so many variables to consider.
 
In a way I believe you saying that the most popular information tends to be true, I have seen many threads with folks mentioning to taste the skimmate 🤢

This is great advice, it is an excellent way to validate dining options and to check out who you want to go to lunch with. I don't think there are many people who have actually calibrated their taste buds to make good reefing decisions based upon the flavor of the skimmate cup, but I'm not going to get on that band wagon.
 
I too think this mantra is really not a suitable way to decide if advice is good at all. People say it all the time, and I strongly disagree.

First, it implies the advice is being used on the build tank, which is very often not the case. I give advice in a huge array of things not used in my personal tank, and very little of my advice is based on my personal tank experience.

Second, it implies the advice is actually beneficial to the build tank, which it may not be. The build tank may be successful even with some poor choices being implemented.

Finally, it assumes the build author understands what they did well enough to grasp the complexity of whether it translates well to other systems. I know with certainty that this assumption is often not true.

None of this means I have any magic way to discern misinformation. I just don’t think this is a good way. For sure it’s not a foolproof way.

I often think of it as the inverse.

Just because a chef has made a great cake does not mean they are automatically a great teacher or the best source of counsel on baking.

However, if they have never produced a decent cake, it is reasonable to vet their advice for some other form of relevant expertise.

Sometimes the goal is not baking the cake. It might be wiring the kitchen, running gas lines, or buying the right stove. In those cases, the resume you are looking for changes. I think reefing works the same way.

If the goal is distinguishing information from misinformation, a relevant resume is a reasonable tool for deciding whose counsel has the highest likelihood of helping you achieve your desired result.

It should not be the only criteria. Applied experience is not exclusive to results. But the majority of the time, they are closely related.
 
If the goal is distinguishing information from misinformation, a relevant resume is a reasonable tool for deciding whose counsel has the highest likelihood of helping you achieve your desired result.

It should not be the only criteria. Applied experience is not exclusive to results. But the majority of the time, they are closely related.

I don’t disagree with that first part. Assessing one’s “ resume” (a complex mix of different things for different people and fields of advice) is an important way, and likely the best way to start to assess the likelihood of misinformation.

I just don’t think looking at a tank they happen to keep provides this info. Perhaps if the tank is a disaster, it’s a warning sign, but even then it really doesn’t demonstrate that they aren’t highly knowledgeable. But more importantly, just looking at a tank that may follow a cook book recipe for success says nothing about their ability to give advice on anything except how to follow that recipe.

I just don’t think there is any easy answer.

If someone says something that seems sketchy to me, what do I do? It is not to look to find a picture of their tank. I cannot think of a time I ever did that over decades of seeing sketchy comments. What I do instead is look to see what other folks are saying on the same topic, either reefers I respect, outside the hobby experts who clearly are expected to know what they are saying, publications by reputable institutions )in and out of the hobby) etc.

Let’s take an example. I consider the idea that shrimp need iodine in the water to be misinformation, yet in the past and perhaps today it was often repeated by people with great tanks. They read it, maybe saw shrimp molt after dosing something with iodine it it, and were convinced.

Thinking it might be sketchy (shrimp seemed fine in my tank when I dosed iodine, and also when I did not dose and levels dropped considerably. , I looked deeper. I found respected reefers who never dosed iodine also had thriving shrimp. When looking outside the hobby, I found info that I think clearly outweighed nice looking tanks: nowhere in the entire shrimp aquaculture industry could I find any mention whatsoever of iodine dosing into shrimp ponds being necessary or useful.
 
Unfortunately the vast majority of people with reef tanks have only been in the hobby for 4 or 5 years and although their experience is helpful, in that short time they could have only had one or maybe two of a specific creature so they may not know what a success is.

To me, a success is when a creature dies of old age and nothing else and for most fish, that is 10, 20 or 30 years. A year or two keeping a Moorish Idol is not a success as that fish should live probably 15 years. Clownfish can live into their 40s.

But if someone has a successful tank for 15 or 20 years and they are not always on the disease forum, they know success and their opinions would carry far more weight. That person would have also dealt with many times all the pests, algae, cyano, and diatoms and know what worked and what didn't.

You can buy all the gadgets you find on forums, but only experience or the experience from an experienced hobbyist can help you. 😎
my LFS has a possum wrasse he's had for 25 years.
 
I don’t disagree with that first part. Assessing one’s “ resume” (a complex mix of different things for different people and fields of advice) is an important way, and likely the best way to start to assess the likelihood of misinformation.

I just don’t think looking at a tank they happen to keep provides this info. Perhaps if the tank is a disaster, it’s a warning sign, but even then it really doesn’t demonstrate that they aren’t highly knowledgeable. But more importantly, just looking at a tank that may follow a cook book recipe for success says nothing about their ability to give advice on anything except how to follow that recipe.

I just don’t think there is any easy answer.

If someone says something that seems sketchy to me, what do I do? It is not to look to find a picture of their tank. I cannot think of a time I ever did that over decades of seeing sketchy comments. What I do instead is look to see what other folks are saying on the same topic, either reefers I respect, outside the hobby experts who clearly are expected to know what they are saying, publications by reputable institutions )in and out of the hobby) etc.

Let’s take an example. I consider the idea that shrimp need iodine in the water to be misinformation, yet in the past and perhaps today it was often repeated by people with great tanks. They read it, maybe saw shrimp molt after dosing something with iodine it it, and were convinced.

Thinking it might be sketchy (shrimp seemed fine in my tank when I dosed iodine, and also when I did not dose and levels dropped considerably. , I looked deeper. I found respected reefers who never dosed iodine also had thriving shrimp. When looking outside the hobby, I found info that I think clearly outweighed nice looking tanks: nowhere in the entire shrimp aquaculture industry could I find any mention whatsoever of iodine dosing into shrimp ponds being necessary or useful.

I think the iodine conversation is a great example of why tank results are not always directly tied to the quality of information being shared. Sometimes misinformation becomes widely accepted simply because it is repeated often enough.

My council on this topic is founded upon a personal breakthrough. When I stopped trying to vet every answer and started vetting the people giving the answers everything got a lot easier and the tank thrived.

Local club members were the first example. Credibility started with the results they could show in person, but the real credibility came from how many other reefers credited their success to that person’s counsel. That changed everything for me. I stopped listening to everyone and started listening to a select few.

Then came reef conferences, speakers, and authors. In many cases, the type of tank they had was not relevant. What mattered was their dedication to their field, their focus on data, research, biology, chemistry, and results instead of internet opinion.

These people referred me to your (RHF) articles. Once I started reading them, it felt like, “Where has this been all my life?” It was a relief to find answers instead of opinions. Detailed science, high standards, and a willingness to help hobbyists directly by being accessable set a new bar for what reefing information could be.

Randy, you may not know this, but for years at BRS I printed every article of yours I could find. Along with other resources, we built a training stack of around 100 articles, and yours made up more than half of it. We created tests around them and used them in weekly customer service training. Promotions were tied to demonstrated understanding of those materials. I wanted anyone calling BRS to get the right answer the first time, and your work was one of the foundations of that effort. A lot of hobbyists who had a good experience with BRS CS owe part of that to you.

Coral farms taught me another lesson. When I met the WWC team, I realized perfect science was not always the goal because there are so many unknowns in reefing. Repeatable results were the goal. Brilliant coloration, fast growth, low mortality, and methods that worked repeatedly. Many of the Coral farmers fail and succeed more in a week than most hobbyists do in a lifetime. When I applied their lessons, they worked. Understanding why they worked became the new pursuit.

The same thing happened with Elliot at Marine Collectors. He handles more fish in a week than I will in a lifetime. His approach is biology based, but also grounded in testing methods until he finds what works repeatedly. When something does not work for certain fish, he adapts.

People debate fish disease, diet, aggression, and habitat endlessly. Even the thought leaders disagree, often starkly. Watch the average QT thread and it is easy to see why newer reefers struggle to separate information from disinformation. For me, being technically right in every debate matters less than the fact that Elliot’s counsel has worked for me repeatedly, including with animals many people struggle to keep. He has never given me a reason to doubt him so I skip many of these endless debates or attempting to decipher information from misinformation.

Ultimately, I credit much of my own reefing success to learning how to listen to people with vastly more experience than me. Learning that baseline knowledge is the baseline to developing the skill required to identify misinformation in the future.

As someone who has been a common source of reefing information, I cannot help but apply this question to myself. What was the balance of information versus misinformation in my own YouTube and video content? That is a heavy question. When I retired from BRStv, people seeking counsel had watched more than 100,000,000 of our videos, with more than 300,000 unique reefers watching globally each month. Right or wrong that reach is going to have far reaching impacts.

I would like to believe the vast majority of that counsel was at minimum materially or directionally correct, meaning it helped produce the intended result. Feedback and data supported that it was, but I have certainly been wrong at times. I only knew what I knew at the time.

Knowing "my opinion" can't always be right, I tried to add accountability what I was doing by documenting build series, bench testing gear, adding data, and showing real outcomes rather than just sharing my opinions. We can debate the individual thousands of pieces of advice in those series, but the results of the people who used them will always matter most.

The series that ended in big wins felt great, but I think both I and the audience often learned more when something that should have worked did not. Showing those failures was not always easy, but documenting the journey forced evolution. So being wrong was sometimes the best possible outcome.

In the end. From a scientific approach I do think that vetting all the relevant answers does produce the most accurate results. However vetting the people giving answers may provide the fastest progress. For those that share that approach the relevant resume’ is the first step to vetting the people. You are right that it is not always just the tanks they produce.
 
Unfortunately the vast majority of people with reef tanks have only been in the hobby for 4 or 5 years and although their experience is helpful, in that short time they could have only had one or maybe two of a specific creature so they may not know what a success is.

To me, a success is when a creature dies of old age and nothing else and for most fish, that is 10, 20 or 30 years. A year or two keeping a Moorish Idol is not a success as that fish should live probably 15 years. Clownfish can live into their 40s.

But if someone has a successful tank for 15 or 20 years and they are not always on the disease forum, they know success and their opinions would carry far more weight. That person would have also dealt with many times all the pests, algae, cyano, and diatoms and know what worked and what didn't.

You can buy all the gadgets you find on forums, but only experience or the experience from an experienced hobbyist can help you. 😎

No question, having the bulk of the animals live out their full natural lives is a legitimate measure of success. Very few reefers will ever achieve that. Maybe 0.001%. Award worthy results for sure :). If someone emulated that path exactly, they would likely have a higher chance of producing similar results than piecemealing together random advice from others.

That said, I’d be curious how the people asking typical questions define their own success. I’d wager that for many, success looks more like getting the first real win under their belt, or simply building a nice looking tank that matches their available time, budget, and skill set. 40 year clownfish and doing this from age 25 to 65 is a million miles from the list of considerations. The hobby tends to shame people who don't have goals like this but quietly we all know no one starts this way.

Others may define success as a fruit bowl of every coral imaginable, brilliant color, and magazine worthy results. Some may want the smallest tank possible. Some may enjoy the technology side of the hobby as much as the animals.

I think your statement holds true but the length and repeatability of success has a higher outcome when the council seeker and giver have or at least understand each other's goals.
 
A lot of people look for confirmation bias. They have an idea, but want others to agree with it, right or wrong. On the other side, no one knows all the answers, no matter how long they’ve been at it. Most of the time all you can do is try things and see what happens.

We all want to avoid deaths in our tanks, but it will happen to an extent regardless of our intentions. All we can do is limit them to the best of our ability, and build experience and knowledge.

If it is truly driving you crazy trying to decide who to listen to, you can just pick someone who you identify with and go from there. If after a while you aren’t getting the results you want, try someone else.

If all else fails, the stubbornness to not quit helps a lot! Just adjust your methods and keep at it. 🙂
 
my LFS has a possum wrasse he's had for 25 years.
I am sure most people would call that a success. I think mine is only about 10 or 12 so I am glad you posted this so I know at least their presumed lifespan. My other one disappeared at about 10 years old so I will take that as a failure on my part.
No question, having the bulk of the animals live out their full natural lives is a legitimate measure of success. Very few reefers will ever achieve that. Maybe 0.001%. Award worthy results for sure :). If someone emulated that path exactly, they would likely have a higher chance of producing similar results than piecemealing together random advice from others.
Of course we don't know the lifespan of the fish we keep in captivity because many of them live over 40 years and there are very few tanks that old.

Many of my fish don't live as long as I think is their normal lifespan and I take those as a failure on my part. Yes, I am hard on myself but I help my feelings knowing that almost no fish in the sea live that long and fish were not designed to die of old age as virtually all of them die either by suffocating on the deck of a ship or getting eaten alive. We can only strive to keep them alive and healthy as long as we can. Almost 100% of them never get past the larval stage.

My other measure of success is that they are spawning. All healthy female fish are pregnant as that is how fish operate. If there is a male close by, they can fertilize the eggs and if not, the female will re-absorb them or expel them, but only the healthiest fish will spawn and only some fish can spawn in a tank as a tank isn't large enough for many of them. Most angelfish, tangs, groupers and some others will not have enough room or water to spawn.

All my fish that can spawn in a tank are spawning including pipefish, mandarins, ruby red dragonettes, damsels, gobies and gobys. So if you have pairs of those types of fish and they are not spawning after a time period, I feel they are not healthy as all those fish spawn constantly in the sea. It's a big part of their physiology.



 
If we are holding longevity as the measure for success, then everyone who has lost a coral may not be covered by that premise.
 
If we are holding longevity as the measure for success, then everyone who has lost a coral may not be covered by that premise.
And I lost plenty of them so I am not as successful with corals as I am with fish and I feel that most corals don't even have a lifespan and may be immortal. Especially SPS as they grow by suffocating the ones under them and growing on top of them. 😎
 
May seem shallow but a good baseline for a credible source is "what does their tank look like?". If someone has had long term success and an incredible tank/coral farm they are doing something right and im much more prone to trust their advice. Even then it doesn't guarantee that all of their practices are sound. Sometimes people talk like they are the Isaac Newton of the reef hobby, but then their tank leaves much to be desired. Pretty cliche but only take advice from those who have accomplished your goals!

Recently I have based alot of my practices on interviews with Battlecorals, Reefbum, Chris Meckley, PiratesReef, and colescorals on instagram. Randy is obviously another amazing resource on this forum. In the past couple years im mainly interested in acros and these sources have documented long term ideal growth, color, etc so i trust what they have to say.

I also like to frequently take inventory of my practices and compare to sources like those above. There's some parts of my reef tank practices that im not 100% confident in (maybe because the community is split on these topics) like running ozone, carbon, and UV 24/7, dosing phyo daily, dosing aminos, etc. Anytime i see someone with a stunning tank i ask them if they use ozone, carbon, uv, how do they use it, etc.
 
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WHICH KIND OF INVERT HAS CAUSED THE MOST MISCHIEF IN YOUR TANK?

  • Sea urchins

    Votes: 15 23.1%
  • Hermit crabs

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • Other crabs

    Votes: 4 6.2%
  • Shrimp

    Votes: 5 7.7%
  • Snails or conchs

    Votes: 3 4.6%
  • Sea stars

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Anemones

    Votes: 12 18.5%
  • None! My inverts are model citizens. :-)

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • Something else (tell us in the comments)

    Votes: 4 6.2%
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