How to get 10-20 years in prison travelling with corals....

[Jay Norris]

I don’t doubt that pollution is a problem, probably the underlying reason for all the red algae problems; but the enemy of stag and elk horn corals has been high temperatures causing bleaching and white band disease problems.

Hi, I have been diving down here since the 60's and the water temps have remained steady thru the years. The one main thing that has changed is the amount of people and all the pollution they bring. Do you remember all the septic deep well injection systems they had in the Keys, and all the sewage that leaked into the Atlantic Ocean, this is not including all the Big Sugar, farm and cattle run off going into Florida Bay and then into the Atlantic Ocean thru all the cannels in the Keys and around Key West. Believe me, it's the man made pollution

 

[Jay Norris]

Link please

I also live in South Florida, lower Miami Dade County. All you need to collect certain types of corals , is a saltwater fishing license, look on the Marine Patrol website or google the FWC website.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Link please

Link to what?

The snorkeling & collecting thread? Like I said, it's in my signature:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/snorkeling-collecting-discussion-group.412414/

 

[sfin52]

Link to what?

The snorkeling & collecting thread? Like I said, it's in my signature:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/snorkeling-collecting-discussion-group.412414/

Thanks, I Didn't see your signature. Forgot that I had to turn my phone sidewai

 

[Oliver d]

I collect here and there but its all legal collection with a permit to do so.

 

[Elegance Coral]

I don’t doubt that pollution is a problem, probably the underlying reason for all the red algae problems; but the enemy of stag and elk horn corals has been high temperatures causing bleaching and white band disease problems.

White band disease is caused by a microbe that's found in human, and other mammal droppings. So in other words, pollution.

 

[User1]

The Philippines don't really play around with any sort of illegal activity sort of makes me not want to travel there for fear of accidentally doing something that they find illegal or wrong.

I know this was probably in jest but I used to go TDY there once or twice a year and when I gave the safety briefing before our deployment I would always include a statement like this. Don't do any sort of illegal activities. Don't speed, don't fight, don't be alone, always in groups, etc. You know the song and dance. Police there, and a few other near by countries, are something you want to steer clear of. Unfortunatly no matter how many different ways I tried to tell the young lads and lasses someone always seems to get into trouble

Of course it is a beautiful place and a lot of the people are amazing. I always enjoyed my time there. But your comment rings very clear to my understanding and behavior while being there. Of course I was there during Ferdinand Marcos rein...

 

[Ron Reefman]

Thanks, I Didn't see your signature. Forgot that I had to turn my phone sidewai

You are welcome.

And I invite anybody who is in any way interested in snorkeling or collecting (whether diving, snorkeling or doing beach walks) to check it out and join in with comments, ideas or questions.

And yes, doing beach walks (never getting in the water) I collect porcelain crabs, pistol shrimp, peppermint shrimp, serpent stars, sea cucumbers, urchins, gorgonians, anemones, clams, sea hares and more! I collect them alive and they end up in my aquarium!
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[Elegance Coral]

Hi, I have been diving down here since the 60's and the water temps have remained steady thru the years. The one main thing that has changed is the amount of people and all the pollution they bring. Do you remember all the septic deep well injection systems they had in the Keys, and all the sewage that leaked into the Atlantic Ocean, this is not including all the Big Sugar, farm and cattle run off going into Florida Bay and then into the Atlantic Ocean thru all the cannels in the Keys and around Key West. Believe me, it's the man made pollution

You got 20 years on me. I first went to the Key's in the 80's, but agree with you 100%. I can't speak of first hand experience with other reefs of the world, but the problem in the Florida Keys is not global warming, or ocean acidification brought on by elevated CO2. The damage is totally pollution. Back in the day, in my favorite swimming hole, I could easily see barracuda 30/40 foot away. I went back a couple of years ago, and I wouldn't have seen him if he was gnawing on my toes. It was heart breaking.
Peace
EC

 

[Graffiti Spot]

It means Shakes My Head.

You see, this is where the internet confuses me once again...

 

[Graffiti Spot]

You are welcome.

And I invite anybody who is in any way interested in snorkeling or collecting (whether diving, snorkeling or doing beach walks) to check it out and join in with comments, ideas or questions.

And yes, doing beach walks (never getting in the water) I collect porcelain crabs, pistol shrimp, peppermint shrimp, serpent stars, sea cucumbers, urchins, gorgonians, anemones, clams, sea hares and more! I collect them alive and they end up in my aquarium!
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*Crowd chants* Lock him up! Lock him up!

 

[ca1ore]

White band disease is caused by a microbe that's found in human, and other mammal droppings. So in other words, pollution.

I was under the impression that was black band disease and that the cause of white band was as yet unclear? But, it's a good point that all of these things are likely exacerbated by environmental stresses including pollution and high temperatures - I guess it's both! Either way, it's 'us'.

 

[ZoWhat]

Nothing like a foreign Government making an example out of you to scare others.

Look at Amanda Knox's story:

 

[Elegance Coral]

I'd like to ask that the poll at the start of this thread be revised. I do take coral from the ocean and I don't feel bad about it either. Why? Because I do it legally. The state of Florida allows anybody with a Florida saltwater fishing license to take up to 5 polyps of soft coral or up to 8 colonies of octocoral (Gorgonians) per day. At the same time you are not allowed to take any stony coral (sps or lps) at all. And I only take for my own personal use. I realize that this thread is about ILLEGAL taking of coral. But the overall tone of it gives those of us who do it legally and with a conscience a bad rap!

As for your postulation that if 1000 people did it there would be nothing left... I realize you are trying to make a point. And most people think of stony corals when they think of coral at all. And yes, stony corals are very slow to grow back. However, I have seen a rock just 50 feet off a beach at a small island in the Keys with so many green zoas that if 1000 people a month took the legal 5 polyps per day it would takes many years to clear that one rock if it would even ever be cleared given growth of the remaining population! And there are a dozen more rocks like that within 100 yards of that first rock. And I'd be willing to wager that on average, those rocks off that island get less than one snorkeler per day and 90% of them don't do any collecting!

I think if you extrapolate your zero tolerance idea out to an extreme, we shouldn't be catching or collecting anything from the ocean. But if a coral, like some zoas and most gorgonians can repopulate faster than the LEGAL collection of it, there is nothing wrong with taking it (legally). This is why painting an issue like this with a broad brush is just wrong.

soap box mode (off)

For those who want to know more about legal collecting of anything aquatic from the waters around Florida, come to my thread about snorkeling and collecting. There is a link the my signature just below. BTW, I do some collecting of live critters right off the sand that isn't even under any water at all when I do a beach walk! Check it out!

I wouldn't try to give anyone a bad rap for collecting legally. You're just much braver than I am.
The laws have changed now, but one of the illegal items I got caught with was a rock the size of a baked potato, covered in green zoas. (we called them green sea mat back in the day because they were so plentiful.) When the game warden pulled the zoa's out of my bucket and said, "You're not allowed to have this", I asked, "I'm not allowed to collect green sea mat??????" He said, "Sure. You can collect the green sea mat, you just can't collect live rock." Crap!!!! I didn't think about them being attached to a rock. It's little things like this that can get you in trouble, even if you were trying to do things by the book.
After getting caught, I did some research into the laws on collecting. (Yes, I know I did that backwards. LOL) This was way back in the day. At that time, the law stated that we could collect soft corals, shrooms, octocorals, and zoanthids, but we had to use a "plastic scraper" to remove them from the rock. The law, as it was written then, specified "plastic scraper" multiple times. That made me wonder, what if they caught me with a medal scraper??? Would I go to jail??? IDK.
For me personally, it's just way to easy to make a mistake, and end up in serious trouble. The punishment is very severe, and the benefit minuscule. If I'm caught with something I shouldn't have, either deliberately or by mistake, me and my friends or family can go to jail, they can take my boat and truck, and never give them back, even send my dog to the pound, and for what? A couple of frags I could pick up at any LFS for just a few bucks????
I don't want to come across as if I'm trying to criticize people for collecting. I've done it, and I had a blast doing it. Just be careful. KNOW the law, and stick to it. Be very careful. They don't play with this stuff any more. They WILL take you to jail, if you mess up.
Peace
EC

 

[Elegance Coral]

I was under the impression that was black band disease and that the cause of white band was as yet unclear? But, it's a good point that all of these things are likely exacerbated by environmental stresses including pollution and high temperatures - I guess it's both! Either way, it's 'us'.

Black band disease involves multiple microbes. I haven't seen any research showing a connection between black band and human fecal material. Not that I'd be surprised. If you have a link, can you share it?

If you've witnessed the devastation, over the past few decades, of the Florida Keys, like myself, and other posters in this thread have done, it becomes crystal clear what the one major influence is, that's driving this destruction. It is pollution. There are many contributing factors, but many of them are simply symptoms of the pollution. When nutrient levels climb, so do microbial populations. Animals become sick, and begin to die. Sea urchins, one of the major herbivores, die. IF the sea urchin deaths were an isolated issue, simply caused by a sea urchin disease, other herbivores MAY have been able to increase in number, and compensate for the loss. There are many species of herbivores in the Keys. Unfortunately, while pollution caused the die off of sea urchins, it simultaneously caused an increase in algae growth. Nature could not compensate for this and much of what was once vast areas of coral, fish, and sea anemones, is now virtually algae ridden waist lands.
Researchers show that black band, white band, white pox, and other coral diseases are caused by a group of microbes, or this microbe, or that one, but the underlying cause of the proliferation of all these microbes is the elevated nutrient levels/pollution.
The visibility under water has changed drastically in many areas. 3 decades ago, you could clearly see a school of barracuda hanging out 30 -40 feet away. In many areas today, you'd never know they were there.
We should probably be having the conversation about climate change, and ocean acidification brought on by elevated CO2, but that's not what's killing the Florida Keys. Pollution is killing the Keys.
Peace
EC

 

[Ron Reefman]

*Crowd chants* Lock him up! Lock him up!

I hope that is being sarcastic and mocking somebody else... ?

Otherwise, lock me up for what? The collecting I do is completely legal. I've even been searched by FWC 3 times at the boat ramp and once while out at an island snorkeling.

I wouldn't try to give anyone a bad rap for collecting legally. You're just much braver than I am.
The laws have changed now, but one of the illegal items I got caught with was a rock the size of a baked potato, covered in green zoas. (we called them green sea mat back in the day because they were so plentiful.) When the game warden pulled the zoa's out of my bucket and said, "You're not allowed to have this", I asked, "I'm not allowed to collect green sea mat??????" He said, "Sure. You can collect the green sea mat, you just can't collect live rock." Crap!!!! I didn't think about them being attached to a rock. It's little things like this that can get you in trouble, even if you were trying to do things by the book.
After getting caught, I did some research into the laws on collecting. (Yes, I know I did that backwards. LOL) This was way back in the day. At that time, the law stated that we could collect soft corals, shrooms, octocorals, and zoanthids, but we had to use a "plastic scraper" to remove them from the rock. The law, as it was written then, specified "plastic scraper" multiple times. That made me wonder, what if they caught me with a medal scraper??? Would I go to jail??? IDK.
For me personally, it's just way to easy to make a mistake, and end up in serious trouble. The punishment is very severe, and the benefit minuscule. If I'm caught with something I shouldn't have, either deliberately or by mistake, me and my friends or family can go to jail, they can take my boat and truck, and never give them back, even send my dog to the pound, and for what? A couple of frags I could pick up at any LFS for just a few bucks????
I don't want to come across as if I'm trying to criticize people for collecting. I've done it, and I had a blast doing it. Just be careful. KNOW the law, and stick to it. Be very careful. They don't play with this stuff any more. They WILL take you to jail, if you mess up.
Peace
EC

You had a very bad and scary experience and I understand that. But now you are making way too much out of understanding the laws. They keep them online so it's easy to stay current. Are they hard to follow? Not hardly. And they are very specific about live rock and stony corals! Back when I had 4 tanks I collected almost every time I snorkeled. But I don't bring home a flatbed trailer full of buckets like you did (what were you thinking!), or a pick up truck bed full of buckets, or even a small van with several buckets. At the peak I was bringing home a small cooler with 2 or 3 days worth of collecting by 2 people. That would be a 5 to 10 snails, a serpent star or 2, a couple of emerald crabs, a 10 polyp colony (5 polyps per person per day and there are 2 of us) of green zoas attached to a sponge (not live rock!), maybe a yellow sea cucumber and a gorgonian or two. So maybe 30% to 50% of what would be allowed under the current laws. These days I'm lucky if I have room in my little 40g cube for much of anything. So unless I find something I need to replace or something unique AND legal, I'm just as likely to have almost nothing but photos!

 

[sfin52]

I hope that is being sarcastic and mocking somebody else... ?

Otherwise, lock me up for what? The collecting I do is completely legal. I've even been searched by FWC 3 times at the boat ramp and once while out at an island snorkeling.

Crowd chants* Lock him up! Lock him up

Earlier in the thread somebody said if somebody was to collect a snail they should get 10-20 yrs .
It was obvious poke at the original poster who made that poorly thought out post

 

[ca1ore]

Hi, I have been diving down here since the 60's and the water temps have remained steady thru the years. The one main thing that has changed is the amount of people and all the pollution they bring. Do you remember all the septic deep well injection systems they had in the Keys, and all the sewage that leaked into the Atlantic Ocean, this is not including all the Big Sugar, farm and cattle run off going into Florida Bay and then into the Atlantic Ocean thru all the cannels in the Keys and around Key West. Believe me, it's the man made pollution

Fair enough. I dove the keys this past Summer for the first time since 1995-ish, and it was quite distressing to see how degraded they are. I wasn't until the second to last day that we actually saw living elk and staghorn corals - and those were small, isolated colonies.

 

[ca1ore]

Not that I'd be surprised. If you have a link, can you share it?

This is what I had been looking at, though I do not know whether it is based off any actual science or simply 'wikipedia' like:

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/southflorida/habitats/corals/diseases

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Earlier in the thread somebody said if somebody was to collect a snail they should get 10-20 yrs .
It was obvious poke at the original poster who made that poorly thought out post

Yea I was just poking fun at the snail arrest point of view, sorry I should have made it a little more clear, I too have collected in Florida but with a license and had a blast!