How to Introduce/Establish a Harem of Dwarf Angels

[mjreefs]

Hi everyone,

As the last few fish of my stocklist, I am currently considering a harem (trio) of dwarf angels, specifically, the flame or the potter's angels. I know there are a lot who have attempted to establish a pair or even a harem of flames, I'm just curious if it is also possible to have a harem of potter's angelfish? Also, since I'm very limited with where I can buy fish, the LFS would most likely have stocks of male flames, but in terms of potter's, it could be a mix of males/females or probably exclusively males. I've read a paper where dwarf angelfish can transition from female to male in the absence of a dominant male, and also from male to female in the presence of a dominant male. I currently have a 45gallon water volume QT, and a divider which can only divide the tank in half. Question is, is it possible to introduce all 3 male flame/potters angels at the same time, let nature take its course, in the hopes of having a harem (with the other two males transition back to females), without the need of a divider or isolation boxes? If it is not possible, would dividing the tank into two, and then placing the other one in an isolation box work? Thank you!

 

[ichthyogeek]

Your best option, would probably be to get one very large dwarf angel, and then two very small dwarf angels. You'd ideally introduce them all at the same time (or barring that, the one very large dwarf angel first), and monitor them very carefully.

 

[Maritimer]

I purchased two small flames online - one died ... of a bacterial infection, IIRC ... in QT, leaving me with one fish. Shortly afterward, was at a LFS for their "Black Friday" sale, and they had a couple of flames just a bit smaller than the one I had, at a price where I could afford to add two more. Adding two at the same time to my 220 gallon display was just enough distraction, in just enough space, to work out. Best part of two years on, and I've now got two females and one male, and have seen spawning activity on numerous evenings.

None of them were large adults when they were added - smaller fish, I feel, allowed more flexibility. From the time they were small, if a more dominant fish was to chase a submissive one, the submissive would often posture toward the dominant, defusing the aggression.

~B.

 

[mjreefs]

Your best option, would probably be to get one very large dwarf angel, and then two very small dwarf angels. You'd ideally introduce them all at the same time (or barring that, the one very large dwarf angel first), and monitor them very carefully.

I purchased two small flames online - one died ... of a bacterial infection, IIRC ... in QT, leaving me with one fish. Shortly afterward, was at a LFS for their "Black Friday" sale, and they had a couple of flames just a bit smaller than the one I had, at a price where I could afford to add two more. Adding two at the same time to my 220 gallon display was just enough distraction, in just enough space, to work out. Best part of two years on, and I've now got two females and one male, and have seen spawning activity on numerous evenings.

None of them were large adults when they were added - smaller fish, I feel, allowed more flexibility. From the time they were small, if a more dominant fish was to chase a submissive one, the submissive would often posture toward the dominant, defusing the aggression.

~B.

Yes, I do know that the best way is to introduce a male with two other smaller juveniles/females to successfully keep a harem, but again, my problem is, based on my LFS' previous shipments, the flames that come in are all males. Potters are quite a rare import, so I'm not too sure, I could request to have them come in as juveniles, but that is also difficult as their supplier could just send them randomly sexed potter's angels (could be all males just like the flames)

 

[pcon]

You can sex potters angels too. Amount of black/blue above the anal fin is the telling factor. Females being more orange and males more blue. This post by humble fish has labeled pictures.

Though possible, I think, it is not a good idea to try to force a transition backwards from male. Even though it is possible. The paper where it was done with rusty angels lost quite a few angels in the attempt.

 

[mjreefs]

You can sex potters angels too. Amount of black/blue above the anal fin is the telling factor. Females being more orange and males more blue. This post by humble fish has labeled pictures.

Though possible, I think, it is not a good idea to try to force a transition backwards from male. Even though it is possible. The paper where it was done with rusty angels lost quite a few angels in the attempt.

Yes, I think Potter's is much easier to sex than the flames (at least for me). If I couldn't add a harem, I would probably just settle with a pair and forcing the transition of the other one back to female. But hopefully, I'd be able to get a female, even though it's highly unlikely.

 

[mjreefs]

So, the LFS has got a bunch of potter’s in and reserved two for me, one of them is noticeably larger than the other. I’ve already asked them to have them in adjacent chambers so that they can see each other. The LFS says that it is taking in mysis shrimp and hopefully would be eating well by the time I pick it up on Thursday. Any tips to have them eat more variety of foods and pairing them? Thanks!

 

[mattzang]

if they're eating mysis they should be pretty good. just keep offering different kinds of food and see what it goes for. my potters eats pretty much anything at this point including pellets and flakes

post 5 covers pretty much everything for pairing. seems pretty easy to tell which is male and which is female. fishbase says

Pelagic spawner. Distinct pairing (Ref. 240). Monogamous mating is observed as both facultative and social (Ref. 52884).

so i wouldn't go for a harem (which seems you aren't)

 

[OrionN]

Hi everyone,

As the last few fish of my stocklist, I am currently considering a harem (trio) of dwarf angels, specifically, the flame or the potter's angels. I know there are a lot who have attempted to establish a pair or even a harem of flames, I'm just curious if it is also possible to have a harem of potter's angelfish? Also, since I'm very limited with where I can buy fish, the LFS would most likely have stocks of male flames, but in terms of potter's, it could be a mix of males/females or probably exclusively males. I've read a paper where dwarf angelfish can transition from female to male in the absence of a dominant male, and also from male to female in the presence of a dominant male. I currently have a 45gallon water volume QT, and a divider which can only divide the tank in half. Question is, is it possible to introduce all 3 male flame/potters angels at the same time, let nature take its course, in the hopes of having a harem (with the other two males transition back to females), without the need of a divider or isolation boxes? If it is not possible, would dividing the tank into two, and then placing the other one in an isolation box work? Thank you!

With 45 gal, I wold not recommend a harem. If you really want to, I would get two angels, but the species that are smaller than Flame or Potter. I am trying to get a pair of African Orange back pygmy angels in my 65 gal.
I would never attempt to put two male together to have one change back to female unless the tank is 120+ gal and with a lot of rocks with crevices for the looser to hide until he finish changing. There is a scientific paper on this subject, except in this paper a large proportion of the male angel died prior to completely transformed back to female.

It is easy to pair dwarf angels, just get female and or Juveniles and put them together. They will pair up without fail.

Here is my Flame angel pair in a 65 gal tank. I moved them to my 320 gal becasue I think, my conclusion from observing them, 65 gal is too small for the pair. They were very healthy in the 65, and was spawning regularly. Still, they are cramped and cannot perform courtship swim without running into the walls, so I moved them to larger house.

 

[mjreefs]

if they're eating mysis they should be pretty good. just keep offering different kinds of food and see what it goes for. my potters eats pretty much anything at this point including pellets and flakes

post 5 covers pretty much everything for pairing. seems pretty easy to tell which is male and which is female. fishbase says



so i wouldn't go for a harem (which seems you aren't)

Yes, I'm going for a pair. They're currently in the LFS separated by glass so they can see each other and would hopefully give me a more seamless introduction for pairing. So far, I asked the LFS to take a video of the fish eating, I saw the smaller one taking in food, but the larger one is just looking at the food and saw it pick one or two pieces.

With 45 gal, I wold not recommend a harem. If you really want to, I would get two angels, but the species that are smaller than Flame or Potter. I am trying to get a pair of African Orange back pygmy angels in my 65 gal.
I would never attempt to put two male together to have one change back to female unless the tank is 120+ gal and with a lot of rocks with crevices for the looser to hide until he finish changing. There is a scientific paper on this subject, except in this paper a large proportion of the male angel died prior to completely transformed back to female.

It is easy to pair dwarf angels, just get female and or Juveniles and put them together. They will pair up without fail.

Here is my Flame angel pair in a 65 gal tank. I moved them to my 320 gal becasue I think, my conclusion from observing them, 65 gal is too small for the pair. They were very healthy in the 65, and was spawning regularly. Still, they are cramped and cannot perform courtship swim without running into the walls, so I moved them to larger house.

Just to clarify, they wouldn't be going into a 45gallon in the long run. The 45gallon is just the QT. They would be going into a 240gallon DT.

 

[OrionN]

Please do not think you need to add them all at he same time.
You absolutely can add them one at a time. I added my Flame angels to my harem one at a time, as long as you don't add a male, even in my 65 gal tank. Dwarf angels are not aggressive toward each other, to the point of injury. Larger, more dominat female may run at a small female, but never fish to the point of injury.

 

[mjreefs]

Please do not think you need to add them all at he same time.
You absolutely can add them one at a time. I added my Flame angels to my harem one at a time, as long as you don't add a male, even in my 65 gal tank. Dwarf angels are not aggressive toward each other, to the point of injury. Larger, more dominat female may run at a small female, but never fish to the point of injury.

I jumped on the chance of a pair. They're currently "seeing" each other in the LFS. My current concern is this:

The smaller one is eating well now. The larger one is not eating. Both are in great condition (no ripped fins, not slim). The LFS fed the potter's frozen artemia and pellets. I'm getting both fish tomorrow and I did a lot of searching here and there and came up with this:

Potter's angelfish constantly graze and their main diet is algae. I plan to introduce Nori tied to a PVC pipe and a clam on a half shell for the next couple of days in the hopes that it would graze off the Nori or take interest in the clam. I could put a small piece of dead rock in lieu of the PVC, I'm just worried that it might decrease my current copper levels (although, they are currently around 0.67 of Copper Power).

 

[OrionN]

So how did your Potter Angels turn out? Doings well in your tank I hope