How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[Mafoo]

@brandon429

Thanks for the reply

I managed to do a 25% (ish) water change which has dropped it, as you would expect. I'll just watch over the next couple of days and see what happens.

It has confused me! I have cycled plenty of tanks. I wonder if I missed something or messed up something along the way.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas are muchly appreciated. Thanks again for your replies and help.

 

[Imrahilwjz]

We are going to fix your cycle without knowing your measurements, since kits range in accuracy so wildly. If you want to post api readings as of July 2022 I don't mind as we've now collected 31 pages of examples of api readings and red sea readings showing concern, while all along all our fish were continually ok

Sensitive organisms like lysmata shrimp always survive, because these waters are safe. If someone wants to post their api readings we already know the posted tank pic will be of normal happy fish. We don't mind the test kit pics, I used to loathe them lol. By page 31 we basically expect the pattern always now.

* don't think we're burning fish here just because cheap test kits said it. We get seneye spot checked a few times using our # of days wait marker for assigning start dates, and we pass digital inspection

We fail non digital inspection, we keep all animals alive, we pass all digital ammonia testing.... this is our whole thread you'll soon see in the posts.

Old school non digital kits are misleading us in subtle but effective ways


Tell us how you fed the system, and how many days the tank has had water in it

Over dosing your cycle with feed places more bacteria in the water than the rocks, the rocks only hold what they can after about ten days on a minor feeding--any cycling chart shows.



Inherent ammonia control doesn't vary wildly among any cycling chart dates you can find for a reason... day ten ammonia drop is there for a reason

our 30+ pages of safe testless cycles prove this rule of updated cycling science, that cycles don't stall. Ammonia control is inherent, predictable and reliable across cycles, cheap test kits mislead the masses on cycling truth



We take the number of days your tank has had water in it, we look at a cycling chart, we change your water if you've over fed, and upon refill your parameter that matters will be in control. Every time, consistently, we show.

-we give an EXACT start date to any request, whereas all other cycling threads are open-ended waits you can‘t plan anything with

if you use old, dated, incorrect cycle information that trains by fear and stalls you could NOT get invited to a reef tank convention and have your stuff ready on time, because you’ll be electing for the open-ended wait option

if you use our way, you WILL be able to make your start date on time because we define a clear, terminable start date for every reef tank posted here. If you open with non digital test kits, which are incorrect, then you confound conflate and combine the two opposing methods.

—————————————————————————————-


If you are concerned about knowing the start date for your reef aquarium post here and we will name the date you can begin carrying a bioload plus its feed plus its generated waste. The whole point of the thread is that you think your cycle is stuck because some cheap test kits said so, and it isn't. If you will devote 20 mins reading to the threads listed in this first post, you will never fail to cycle a reef tank again and that means without testing for anything, we don't use cheap test kits here like other cycle threads.


cycles don't stall like we've been told.




When someone makes a handwritten or app-driven cycling chart, and the input data test source is unverified and non digital, that doesn’t make their charting correct; it makes it a complete distraction yet they’re still going to post the incorrect readings charts for feedback for pages because that’s the depth of mis training we’ve all been given



aquarists post and fixate on total ammonia readings, but we only care about nh3 in reefing. The ammonia you are concerned about is ten times lower than you were about to state here before intercept, you were about to report nh4 form ammonia that we don't factor. Nh4 vs nh3 factoring is where all cycle troubleshoots go wrong because reefers are trained to accept nothing less than all zero nh4, or the cycle is stalled.

if you're familiar with classic API .25-.5 levels in perfectly normal running reefs you have an idea why we never expect zero nh4/ total ammonia in stocked reef tanks. The real range we're running tank to tank due to repeated use of extra surface area live rock in display reefs is ~.001-.007 ppm nh3. It will take a seneye meter or similar device to see that degree of accuracy. Until then, expect red sea and api to always show 'some' ammonia vs none. This aspect of updated cycling science will remedy 99.9% of stuck cycle threads. The omission of all nitrite data further narrows down the cure rates on any given cycling post... hence the patterns of fixed cycles you'll see coming on this giant thread. Nobody posting actually had a broken cycle; I fixed nothing. They were all able to carry bioload right off the bat, due to repeating surface area designs reefers copy off each other. Most cycle assessment threads are about how the cycle was stalled, incomplete

But look at our data: anyone who posts is already done/ they tend to show up with rocks + bottle bac that are instantly able to carry a starting bioload.




see your test kits instructions for nh3 conversion—new cycling rules are already at work reducing concern. your cycle is not stuck, reef tank cycles do not stall.




Don’t test for nitrite in reef tank cycles

we still get nitrite readings posted on nearly every page despite this request because we are trained to think we can’t know about a cycles progress without the readings from cheap non digital test kits so cyclers post the data anyway, as if it’s correct and I’m supposed to alter an assigned start date off the data.

Nitrite testing and response must be omitted in this thread.




- don't test for nitrite in display tank reef cycling


in 2020 we started listening to Randy’s fifteen year old nitrite article. Our hobby ignored his chemistry advice to ignore nitrite, and now we will listen and actually test the claims here.



Nitrite cannot harm your cycling display reef, its chemically neutral, we don’t want to see nitrite data here as it’s the #2 cause of false assumed stuck cycles and its a neutral param. even if positive, its not harming your cycle or animals. Nitrite is a freshwater risk, not a marine display aquarium high salinity risk and as MNFish1 pointed out per Randy’s article, special quarantine systems that may get very low salinity intervals can manage nitrite to track toxicity limits. Randy’s article shows us that in display reefs it’s not a concern so don’t concern over it.

The presence of nitrite cannot harm your inverts, your early corals or your fish or your cycle, don’t post nitrite data here as you’re using a seven dollar kit to measure nitrite and we don’t even believe the report is accurate anyway

Read this nitrite article

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

nitrite is chemically neutral for us in all presentations here.


if there are special interesting cases, I'll ask to see your nitrite readings (such as if you own a hanna digital nitrite meter)

mostly they'll mislead us, don't post any nitrite measurements.

-Case Studies that reflect nearly all cycle tanks that will be posted here for years to come:

Actual reef tanks as case studies for the rest of the thread

———————————-First example using a reef tank for unsticking a cycle————————->


Do you see how his API kit said he had eight parts per million ammonia below, not cycled, but after one water change the aquarium was instantly ready and then turned into a reef?

read below the first example, every cycle umpire in existence would say the tank showing 8 ppm ammonia is stalled and not ready, but it wasn’t true. Was his bottle bac dead or nonfunctional just because nh4 read high level on api?


Read the thread to see how only one water change instantly made the tank ready, it was not stalled.

100% Water Change

Just perfect! Ok we watch for number three pic in 24-48 hours, really great. This is a clear documentation can’t wait Even if it takes till Sunday to get motion down that means cycled. but If no change in color by Sunday nite, a stuck cycle, my worst fear lol this is like when you bet your...

www.reef2reef.com

*every cycle umpire from every reef board in the world would say that cycle isn’t ready, wait weeks longer. What did one full water change accomplish, did he have to wait weeks? Stalled cycles are a false notion. If someone accidentally blasts ammonia into a cycle their bacteria aren't dead, just change out the excess wastewater for new and the functioning bio slick filter bacteria are left behind adhered to the rock. It's why Andrew's tank became a reef tank immediately after a water change but with no extra bacteria added.


Ammonia overdose posts are shown above... do a water change and begin after day ten wait. Cycle fixed.


consider this quarantine cycle challenge below

One water change and it’s carrying bioload just fine plus feed. Per nh4 reading, it was stalled and every umpire would have recommended to add more bacteria.

nothing was added to help the cycle, a water change was done to reveal working bioslicks under the initial wastewater. He was using a common degree of surface area we'd see in anyone's two- clownfish quarantine setup, so we knew it would cycle for ammonia control by day ten wait on any fed + boosted cycle...a cycling chart says so

Stalled Cycle?

20 gallon QT tank set up 30 days ago. I do not have a DT set up yet, just trying to get a jump on fish to add to my tank and make sure they're healthy and pest free right from the get go. Like I said tank was set up 30 days ago. Sponge filter and HOB filter running sponge and ceramic. Used...

www.reef2reef.com

**Think about the two case studies you just read. The first case study example is fixing a claimed stuck cycle reef tank with one full water change past day ten wait of a cycling chart's ammonia line.

JackAlexander then makes a complete reef out of his fixed cycle in live time

The bac were fed well, not killed by his overdose. Your tank is going to cycle in the same timeframe Jack's did, it doesnt matter if your levels are higher or lower than his. the water change resets it all, revealing a fully working filter underneath the former wastewater.

bottle bac sellers set maximum ammonia limits as a buying impulse, so you buy new bac to replace claimed dead ones

we just disproved high ammonia levels kill out a cycle above








On any cycling chart you can find in a book or online, by what date does the ammonia drop to safe levels?

On any chart, does it rise back up and hold?













There are no stuck cycles in reefing. nearly everyone that will post here has been running longer than ten days on a bottle bac mix, so expect most of the responses to state a past ready date, not a future one.



What you should be concerned about is fish disease, if you are a new cycler read this entire thread below to give your fish the best chance, ammonia and nitrite hasn’t killed anyone’s newly started reef but disease sure does— we will be the first cycling works to include fish disease study as the up front risk in all reef tank cycles.


Fish disease preps are required to keep your fish alive by month eight after they’re added. What buyers do is obsess over non digital test kits in an effort to create a safe environment for fish and then kill them within the first year by skipping disease preps=break that cycle here with us

Why do my fish keep dying

I’ve had a 30 gallon set up since november. I have lost a tangoroa goby, two Midas blennies, a blackcap Basslet and all of the sudden one of my saddleback clowns just died. I’ve had the pair of clowns since January no problems. Please help any input would be much appreciated. What keep happening...

www.reef2reef.com

instead of posting charts and readings built from misreading test kits, post a chart showing what you’ve done to prepare for fish disease


*******look how for the next thirty pages non digital charts and api/ red sea read outs comprise all the data we discuss despite my opening plea, yet fish disease preps comprise about 2% of data we get presented though disease preps are the most important factor in our thread**********

Notice how in order to save fish for the hobby, we need to be discussing innovative fish disease preps, but instead all energy is directed at convincing people their slight nh4 reading is not indicative of a cycle stall. Fish disease loss comprises all recordable loss in forums, losses during cycling are so rare i don't know of any recent posts in the matter

Jay's disease forum here on rtr is busy trying to assist skip- prep systems who opted to focus on nitrite compliance vs vector control.

Take time to read the stickies in the disease forum, learn fallow and quarantine techniques, this will save your fish. For the next 30+ pages everyone's cycle is fine. None are broken or stalled you can see in the outcome pics showing happy fish in each job.






if you want to test and know ammonia accurately in your reef buy and calibrate a seneye ammonia meter, then report those levels to us. Don’t forget to trim and calibrate it so it reads correctly, search out trim threads for the device. We want any and all seneye ammonia measurements you have from any setup using seneye.


in our thread we dont ask about your alkalinity nor salinity nor pH nor nitrite and yet we turn out pages of cycled reefs, that’s because those troubleshooting details aren’t required, cycles don’t stall with these common setup variances.


What do pros recommend on disease preps? Read below

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

A successful cycle involves a disease prep plan

the cycle was so easy you couldn't mess it up





Think about this: do reef conventions ever have trouble aligning 500 instant reef starts on time since 1998? no. No stalls, demo tanks carrying fifty grand in animals all skip cycle start on time, all the time. Buyers and forum cyclers are left with the open ended waits.

Sellers know how to start their reef at full power cycle any day they want, without ramp up




If you've read a cycling thread before, not any umpire would list an exact ready date for the person needing help. They place the start date safely in the hands of the nh4 test kit, an open- ended wait.


100% of every cycle posted here for help gets a specific start date given to them the instant we get a full tank description with number of days underwater listed. We ignore their test kits... we use updated cycling science here and turn out safe reefs not by adjusting what they do, but by adjusting what reef tank cyclers measure.

We measure time underwater as the primary determinant of cycle readiness...old cycling science uses strictly an nh4- reading test kit and tells us to buy more bacteria if it's not zero.



******you can buy pre quarantined fish from these places and save a ton of prep headache thank you BriansBrain for the heads up

Home | Quarantined Fish

Subscribe to our YouTube channel to see videos of livestock! https://www.youtube.com/@drreefsquarantinedfish Enjoy the best quality Healthy Livestock QT&#03 ...

drreefsquarantinedfish.com

https://www.thebiotagroup.com/

Saltwater Fish

Largest Quarantined Saltwater Fish Facility. All fish go through a minimum 30 Day Quarantine. We carry Captive Bred & Wild Livestock. Angelfish, Anthias, Basslets, Butterflyfish, Clownfish, Filefish, Gobies, Rabbitfish & Foxface, Mandarins, Triggerfish, Tangs, Wrasses, Corals & Invertebrates...

tsmaquatics.com

wow!

 

[brandon429]

Mafoo

I would add some test life and we can watch them be fine. You're twice over the wait period we use, they'll be fine. If they're not then it's on me and we have some new data

This whole thread has been about proofing a cycle by watching fish act just fine let's see that finality compared to a test reading
Hundredths ppm nh3 isn't lethal as well they'll be fine.

 

[Mafoo]

@brandon429 Thank you.

Copy that. Just have to work out what now Will avoid any fish, initially, I think. Have some in QT (and the ones in the nano) but will wait a few more days for that I think.

Snails?

 

[brandon429]

Sure they’re ok for sure as a test

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

2 days after I added my first fish, apair of clowns, along with some inverts including a nice big CBS to a 75G. I had a huge nitrite spike of 2ppm. I remembered this thread and didn't fret it, the livestock did not seem to notice and are still doong great as the nitrite dropped in roughly 1 day.

Do we know for a fact nitrite affects fresh even? In our fresh quarantine tank which we overstock everytime we use it, and there is usually a nitrite spike even thought its been in service many times. The only thing we have noticed with this spike in fresh, is that we have to crank up the aerator.

 

[brandon429]

I have no data on that other than what randy says: freshwater becomes an inversion risk due to changes in chloride ratio and ph- nitrite is the burning form and ammonium at this pH isn't harmful, in freshwater (apologies to a chemist if I was supposed to say ammoniac lol i have not caught up on nitrogen species lately)

If you're seeing real world applications where nitrite isn't bothering freshwater I'm interested to know today here just so we can all see a new angle for nitrite other than loathing it's factor in a marine cycle or a reason to buy another round of bottled bacteria heh

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I have no data on that other than what randy says: freshwater becomes an inversion risk due to changes in chloride ratio and ph- nitrite is the burning form and ammonium at this pH isn't harmful, in freshwater (apologies to a chemist if I was supposed to say ammoniac lol i have not caught up on nitrogen species lately)

If you're seeing real world applications where nitrite isn't bothering freshwater I'm interested to know today here just so we can all see a new angle for nitrite other than loathing it's factor in a marine cycle or a reason to buy another round of bottled bacteria heh

Regarding fresh

We have very alkaline water, after our normal tap filter of lead removal and carbon, the dkh on our tap is 8.3, and our fresh water PH is about 8.1, it hasn't been an issue as long as we drip acclimate first. I bet that ph drops significantly if we do not increase airflow.

I assume, this might be why, nitrite has less affect, and the airation increase is probably helping to redyce carbonic acid maintaining that high PH for that initial overload and spike.

I am assuming this is what is perceived as a stalled cycle in fresh.

We will have a new batch of fancy goldfish soon, i will catalog the parameters through that seemingly inevitable swing, and make a new reply here with details and pics, for science.

Edit: we use tap and stresstcoat + for our fresh. RODI and reef crystals from instant ocean for our marine.

 

[brandon429]

regarding nitrite I'm not sure I'd trust api

do you have the hanna digital nitrite checker

it's not that API is instantly ruled out but the truth is nobody really lauds their ammonia tests, nor calcium nor alk tests, so we tend to have to accept them as factual since they're just about the only source for nitrite testing in aquariums.

I know dupla and others have the kits as well, but in keeping with the digital theme/I'd rather know that we're dealing in digital nitrite levels for all verifications on cycling/known timing dates.

if some form of testing seems to indicate nitrite isn't inherently controlled by day 30/most cycling chart's nitrite drop date/ammonia is day ten then I'd want that to be a hanna checker saying before we bank on it.

I have no idea what natural nitrite turnover levels are in freshwater systems...it's not zero. just like ammonia isn't zero, these states of nitrogen and oxygen are in constant conversion and not zero in stocked systems. in reefs Lasse was able to document with hanna that nitrite turns over at the rate of .0x hundredths ppm, and we can see from nearly all seneye posts that nh3 turns over in the thousandths ppm .00x but isn't zero in stocked systems.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

regarding nitrite I'm not sure I'd trust api

do you have the hanna digital nitrite checker

it's not that API is instantly ruled out but the truth is nobody really lauds their ammonia tests, nor calcium nor alk tests, so we tend to have to accept them as factual since they're just about the only source for nitrite testing in aquariums.

I know dupla and others have the kits as well, but in keeping with the digital theme/I'd rather know that we're dealing in digital nitrite levels for all verifications on cycling/known timing dates.

if some form of testing seems to indicate nitrite isn't inherently controlled by day 30/most cycling chart's nitrite drop date/ammonia is day ten then I'd want that to be a hanna checker saying before we bank on it.

I have no idea what natural nitrite turnover levels are in freshwater systems...it's not zero. just like ammonia isn't zero, these states of nitrogen and oxygen are in constant conversion and not zero in stocked systems. in reefs Lasse was able to document with hanna that nitrite turns over at the rate of .0x hundredths ppm, and we can see from nearly all seneye posts that nh3 turns over in the thousandths ppm .00x but isn't zero in stocked systems.

I know API in my circumstance almost always tests 0, but I assume that's because it doesn't pick up on less than .25ppm at all. Only because of this that I've seen. I trust the one time i catch it after massive load increases. Or right before the first diatom bloom, it is in fact detecting more. While I agree that maybe it's not at all acurate, the elevated levels i find, when I do, seem to correlate directly with how much overload i hit it with. The more fish in at one time, the more I see in the test when it shows up the 1 time.

 

[brandon429]

excellent. if it baselines at zero reliably and then shows a spike in a qt setup which are already known to be surface area challenged, you're free to post findings here

very neat all around info.

 

[btmedic04]

Hey all. I just wanted to check back in and say that there have been no casualties thus far and nitrites have bottomed out. Ill be adding a cuc soon and start moving over a few more of my fish from the frag tank

 

[Mafoo]

@brandon429

Just wanted to let you know that my NH3 has dropped to 0.001 on the Seneye for a few days now. The Seachem Ammonia Alert also agrees. Once it started to drop, it dropped quickly.

I have a NitrIte reading (0.3 or 0.4) but not too worried about that. NitrATe about 10.

I put a few snails in. I also moved a couple of my ‘hardy’ corals across from my existing tank and they haven’t hesitated to open up.

I’m correct in thinking there is no need to ‘feed’ the tank anymore. Will have some fish coming out of QT next week.

 

[brandon429]

It's ok to feed animals / corals a bit of good protein to keep them happy and the bacteria for cycling will continue to benefit, but even if you did not feed them the cycle would not retrograde / you've locked a good cycle in place

 

[brandon429]

*how is the seneye looking now. there's no way a biofilter is stuck this long if it hasn't moved down, I would love to see api ammonia or red sea (a pic of the actual vial's reading on the card) if seneye is still elevated.

 

[Mafoo]

*how is the seneye looking now. there's no way a biofilter is stuck this long if it hasn't moved down, I would love to see api ammonia or red sea (a pic of the actual vial's reading on the card) if seneye is still elevated.

Hey @brandon429

If this is for me, Seneye has been at 0.001 stable for a week now with no deviation even with the addition of fish NitrIte had almost bottom out when I tested two days ago, so guessing it had now.

Fish are all good having come from 5 weeks in QT.

I’m not too sure what happened but it’s all looking good now!

Thanks again for your help and support.

Matt

 

[brandon429]

8 week successful fishless cycle...broken?

*Can we please get a picture of this tank, so we can clearly see the rocks/ratios/things added as a pic pls the reason all stuck cycle threads must have a tank picture provided is sometimes the picture itself resolves any question of a cycle problem...such as times people build their scape out...

www.reef2reef.com

completely turned around from a focus on delayed ammonia control loss (doesn’t happen in reefing) into the focus on fish disease.


See the chemistry forum; new cycling science is changing people's reaction to false broken cycles:

What ammonia level do you see?

My tank’s been cloudy for days and I’m trying to figure out what’s going on. It’s a coral-only tank right now and all my snails are accounted for. It’s been set up for about 2 months. That said, what ammonia reading are you seeing? I’m reading it as 0.5ppm.

www.reef2reef.com

**notice how updated cycling science stopped ammonia concerning and in that he discloses some heavy dosing of alk solution etc/ clouding isn’t likely bacterial in any way. Updated cycling science focuses on disease prevention above ammonia concerning and it allows accurate troubleshooting to proceed in problem tank threads.

 

[brandon429]

New cycled reef moves 8ppm ammonia to zero


crowd still says to buy more bacteria:

Cycling Question.

Hello All, I've read numerous threads about cycling but I know all situations/tanks are different. My issue is back on Dec 3rd I dosed whole bottle of nitrocycle and Fritz turbo900. The nitrocycle instructions were 1ml per gallon, so i dose the whole bottle as i have a 250 gallon. Dry rock...

www.reef2reef.com

changed flow of thread to: your cycle is done, consider disease preps. Get into Jays forum today, watch for new posts. Find the starting threads of the posters asking for disease help, see what links them

notice in ALL of Jays troubleshooting the cycle was never an issue in disease prevention, they do specific things to lessen disease expression



we redirect new cyclers away from fear-based cycling, arbitrary wait times, and we direct them into reading jays disease forum stickies. That’s why for 35 pages we have all happy cycles.

 

[brandon429]

Help with tank test results. Pretty confused.

I have an IM 40g long. Slightly over 2 months old at this point. I've had 4 successful tanks in the past, possibly made a rookie mistake with this one. I added Caribsea dry rock, Caribsea sand. LFS water. Added MicroBacter7 first week or so, added CUC, waited about 3-4 weeks, added 2 clowns...

www.reef2reef.com

A new cycle tracing coming


no 2 months display cycle can be starved, stalled, or halfway working its plainly done.

there would be cycling charts showing an ammonia line taking longer than ten days were that the case, that a 2 month old stocked display reef could be only half cycled.

we have a failed ammonia test from api in the pics (that's how it always goes down) and we are about to get full tank pics that show no issues, that contrast in presentation is why updated cycling science is needed and the intention of the tracing isn't to figure out if ammonia is ok, it always is (or his thread title would mention a tank crash, they never do)

the cycle tracing upcoming is to weigh how disease preps are factored in the tank; the concern isn't the ammonia, it's potentially that no preps fish have been added to any 2 month old system. if those fish + corals + clean up crew were fallow prepped, we're in line.

ammonia concern isn't a factor in display tank reefing, skipping disease preps is the sole concern.

 

[Mrcote1]

Alright, ill be another one of those people who post a picture of their API test kit.

Its a 10 gallon tank to be used for dwarf seahorses. Because of this absolutely no live rock or sand was used.

Tank was up and running for 7 days, then I put in 2 mollies I converted to freshwater and feed them once a day.

Then i wanted to Speed things up to get the dwarf seahorses while they are in stock so I bought a bottle of Dr Tims one and only and started his "fishless cycle" with fish on day 10. I am now on day 22 (12 days since I added bottled bacteria) and my ammonia still shows highish around 2ppm, no nitries, no ammonia using API. But fish are happy as can be.

Am I ready for seahorses?