How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...while-seeding-dry-rock-with-live-rock.964664/

and here is another. this is a testless cycle, guaranteed done, without any verification needed live rock sitting in a bin of dry rock and water will upcycle the dry rock in about fifteen days, per submersion rules we've been verifying three years here.


plus he added feed; that alone would fix the entire cycle at six weeks. he's compound cycled above, that's why it's testless. there isn't a time he wouldn't be cycled in that arrangement at week six, testing implies that it might not work.

feel free to seneye test any of these cycles with fish present...the rocks will pass every time.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-cycling-question.965336/

every once in a while we find a gem of a study for our particular thread

look at this concern this api misread is causing:

and look at the reef it’s attributed to, does it look like the reef is crashing?




That conflict is what we study, this thread is very much a part of new cycling science as we are using overall tank health as the guide, not the non digital test kit

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-cycling-question.965336/

every once in a while we find a gem of a study for our particular thread

look at this concern this api misread is causing:

and look at the reef it’s attributed to, does it look like the reef is crashing?




That conflict is what we study, this thread is very much a part of new cycling science as we are using overall tank health as the guide, not the non digital test kit

Playing the devils advocate here, are you confident it is the test result that is in "error" as opposed to the interpretation that 1 ppm total ammonia would have a visible effect?

 

[brandon429]

It's due to the pure lack of ever seeing such a measure in anyone's seneye posts uploaded to forums, given this many days after setup after adding bottled bacteria also factoring no viewable ammonia losses in recent search history + the sum total of the large bottle bac study threads showing how bottle bacteria cycles go

I have a harder time buying that all assemblies of cycling tanks lend by happenstance the pH ranges that protect against nh3 expression

These recurring cycle setups are not copying pH controlling methods they're copying high surface area + bottle bac or live rock bacteria methods that select for ammonia control in my opinion and finding in pattern


Lastly, we have similar readings available for two year running reef tanks where the non digital kit says ammonia control waned in a system we're certain couldn't lose ammonia control, several threads in pattern

The one linking factor in all of these posts is the non digital test kit

Another emerging factor is the constant lack of failed cycles, inability to carry bioload, if we just wait ten days on any common arrangement


*I'm claiming once digital measurements are the basis of measure the ratios of bioload to surface area we all copy off one another never allow for 'sticking' cycles only handling a portion of the daily need and that ten days is enough to establish that control using all common cycling means

Eventually in broken systems some losses must arise. No losses we think means the system was never broken.

I used to think the wait time was 30 days as the equalizing factor among cycles, different large thread of tank cycles worked

This thread moved it up to day ten

I wonder how short the ammonia control wait time really is for the masses. I've never seen a calibrated seneye show problematic ammonia after day 2....

 

[brandon429]

I'm not saying every seneye is right for the baseline they report which is about 99% cycled reefs running .00X ppm nh3



a small tiny portion of the searchable online data uploads from the devices report .0x ppm nh3 and 0% report tenths ppm average running rates nh3 when benchmarked on a running reef tank first, trimmed into the averages that reef tanks show, then moved over to a cycling reef in question.


Seneye posts collectively show a very fast resolve rate for added ammonia test loading

there is a universal linkage between our tanks vs a tendency towards disparity in cycle timing, I truly believe that's the hidden clue. seneye is reporting this natural linkage tanks display in their ability to always carry bioload when we ask them to

even in rushed jobs, no spikes sustain, says seneye

since seneye systems on running reefs are very good in unison at reporting small injections of ammonia into the water + a similar resolve rate (vs just indicating no change, they're catching tiny test loads very very well) I can't also think they're terrible or useless meters. they simply show a link I long suspected was the explanation for all the fish being carried day one on any common bottle bac setup.


The notion of a stalled cycle truly seems to be a false condition, we want to develop the pattern here testing that claim. we will see free ammonia claimed after day ten here, we'll take no action, the bioload lives normally, as many pages as we want to run the test is the bet.

*I don't have a way to reliably track pH levels for people so we can reveal the real trends... too many non digital test kits mess up the data


@Randy Holmes-Farley

truly interested to know: if all you ever received was api and red sea pH test kit estimates, color gradients relayed to you as fact, would your job in chemistry work threading be hindered or would that be a non-issue

I noticed you get to verify source of pH measure in many chemistry troubleshoots


we want that for cycling

 

[brandon429]

Readers


ask yourself this

if reef tank cycle procedure is evolving beyond the means and methods of the last two decades, how will we know it? What will that evolution look like, what clues might we be able to find?

think about how many ways reefing procedure has evolved from lighting to automated controls to coral availability to precision digital test kits and disease preps for fish / so many ways evolve before our eyes

but cycling the reef, preparing for animals is locked still in 1999 mode because we use the test kits from 1999 still today


other parameter studies get the digital revolution, but not cycling

Is it possible to evolve cycling procedure anyway even if the masses aren’t given the tools? I think so.

the reef from post #722 might be hard to beat all year as a case study of false stalling. The analysis is now complete for that tank, api had its required and predicted lag time to show resolve

look how much negative pressure was placed on our new tank cycler by peers from the postverse in the closing posts within that thread. He was told that I was lying to him and that notable harm would come to his reef: no harm came to his reef though

no harm came to any reef in this collection, I don’t harm reefs

the contrast in claims vs outcome is worth studying in my opinion, it’s evidence of evolution in my opinion



we track the evolution of reef tank cycling here using clues we must discern from post patterns since we aren’t given the updated tools to be able to measure progress relative to 2023

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/first-cycle.966871/
That's a full skip cycle reef. Study what the cycle coaches told him

Were they using new or old cycling science

Old cycling science cannot fathom skip cycling.

 

[Bbyari]

Hi All
New reefer and have been reading a ton and glad I found this thread.
I am cycling and here is the story.... :)

* Tims Fishless Cycle method with Amonia Dosing.
* Followed the intructions by the book
* Dry rock, Carib sea live sand


* Day 23:
Temp: 77.8
Sal: 34.7-Hanna
PH:8.22-Hanna
N03: 0
N02: Cant really tell but purple or 2.0-5.0

I performed a 25% water change yesterday and still measuring high N02. Now I get mixed messages on Ntrite and want to do thi sproperly so waiting for Nitrite to go down but this thread is advising otherwise. I want to add some fish but dont want them stressed out and dying on me
I see many people having the same issue so should I still give it time?

 

[brandon429]

hey so glad you posted. every entrant here is adding fish during + nitrite phase, and each entrant can be selected on by their name/select find all threads, and you can see their resulting follow up info going back 3 yrs/the pattern is certain: your tank will carry fish due to number of days running + the bottle bac used and nitrite will not harm them

the risk is that you're potentially skipping disease risk and getting delayed losses that way, if these fish weren't quarantined. if they were, and you have a plan for fallowing out all your upcoming additions like corals and clean up crews/anything wet from a fish store then you can proceed solidly

most don't have that plan: they only want to know the date their system can carry fish without burning them via nitrite or ammonia, and you've exceeded that date. your biofilter is set, your disease suppression controls are no where near set

 

[brandon429]

Just to add some background on why there's new rules for marine tank cycling:

Chemists have known for a very long time that nitrite isn't harmful at the levels a reef tank will ever see but the average cycler and pet store and online peer usually groups all cycling information into the same methods freshwater tanks use

Nitrite is harmful in freshwater cycles very much

But as a unique niche for saltwater tanks, the degree of chloride in the water is elevated and this cancels out the burn- ability for nitrite by plugging up receptor channels in the cells of our reef tank animals/ summarized from Randy's article on nitrite

Only due to our salt levels do we get away with ignoring nitrite

most cycling sources don't know this distinction yet so it makes our thread stand out but this is really just reintroducing info randy wrote about in 2005/ nothing is really new under the sun

I do think this is first thread on the internet to literally test the claim with the focused addition of fish into nitrite positive systems across hundreds of tanks and so far have a perfect outcome. We think how you acclimate fish and prep them for disease is the real hidden risk to your new fish, not ammonia or nitrite given the repeating setups everyone is using in this thread.

This is also the first testless cycling test run on the internet where we decide when a reef can carry fish independently to what people post as their test readings. We don't need anyone's test readings to know when their cycle is done: we count the number of days underwater they've been running and you're twice over that recurring wait time in your setup. Nobody's cycle takes longer than ten days to complete in the common ways people copy initial setups from one another

 

[Bbyari]

Just to add some background on why there's new rules for marine tank cycling:

Chemists have known for a very long time that nitrite isn't harmful at the levels a reef tank will ever see but the average cycler and pet store and online peer usually groups all cycling information into the same methods freshwater tanks use

Nitrite is harmful in freshwater cycles very much

But as a unique niche for saltwater tanks, the degree of chloride in the water is elevated and this cancels out the burn- ability for nitrite by plugging up receptor channels in the cells of our reef tank animals/ summarized from Randy's article on nitrite

Only due to our salt levels do we get away with ignoring nitrite

most cycling sources don't know this distinction yet so it makes our thread stand out but this is really just reintroducing info randy wrote about in 2005/ nothing is really new under the sun

I do think this is first thread on the internet to literally test the claim with the focused addition of fish into nitrite positive systems across hundreds of tanks and so far have a perfect outcome. We think how you acclimate fish and prep them for disease is the real hidden risk to your new fish, not ammonia or nitrite given the repeating setups everyone is using in this thread.

This is also the first testless cycling test run on the internet where we decide when a reef can carry fish independently to what people post as their test readings. We don't need anyone's test readings to know when their cycle is done: we count the number of days underwater they've been running and you're twice over that recurring wait time in your setup. Nobody's cycle takes longer than ten days to complete in the common ways people copy initial setups from one another

First, I want to thank you for all the help. I have read a ton of your posts and appreciate all the insight and advise. My plan is to go to my LFS that is also heavily involved in our club. He claims all his fish are quarintened min 30days. The members buy from him so my plan is to get my first two Clowns ( What else!) and he has a paird Ocellaris Clown that I have my eyes on that were released on 2/25. I will also follow through with my Coral but really have not decided what I want yet and definetly clean up crew but have nothing to clean.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I performed a 25% water change yesterday and still measuring high N02. Now I get mixed messages on Ntrite and want to do thi sproperly so waiting for Nitrite to go down but this thread is advising otherwise. I want to add some fish but dont want them stressed out and dying on me
I see many people having the same issue so should I still give it time?

There is no mixed message on nitrite toxicity. There is a right answer, and a wrong answer ported over from folks with freshwater knowledge that have not registered yet that seawater is different.

Of course it is fine to wait for nitrite to decline. Nothing wrong with that. But your fish will not be stressed by 0-3 ppm nitrite.

Ammonia is the one you definitely want down, and to stay down after adding fish. Best way to do that is to challenge the tank with ammonia a couple of times to see how fast it drops.

 

[brandon429]

I disagree with the last statement even though you’re free to type it

thats old cycling science because it hints one drop isn’t enough, we must re verify after ten days prep time/ it’s a doubt mode fully opposite of everything we’ve done here for three years while logging perfect outcomes and passing anyones seneye audit. As a mod you’re free to redirect anyones work thread with unfounded doubt anytime you want, so that’s a nice freedom I guess. It gives you the ability to stifle any new inspection patterning if you deem it unworthy.

people on api will jack the ammonia so high the kit registers false cycles, I’d give anything for you not to have posted that last sentence but you’re free to stop anyones inspection any time you will it.



specifically, I don’t want examples where people verified ammonia dropping at all on non digital kits, much less more than once

this is a testless cycling thread for a reason/ to find new means of cycling that are consistent and don’t prop up the bottle bac industry with false sales

it’s not to anger you, or draw the ire of pro chemists, it’s simply what we’ve been inspecting for a while / harmlessly. We earned this right with the degree of happy results. Everyone’s fish are fine here using the new ways


if we aren’t free to separate from old ways we can’t evolve new ways, i want nothing to do with old cycling science here at all, there are five hundred alternate cycling threads using the old ways anyone can select and they’ll be ready for fish in 30-90 days only when api says bone yellow zero.



That just now was a redirection away from disease preps and right back into 1998 ammonia fear. I guess i deserve it for barging into all those algae threads and offering to fix them with a rip clean, perhaps it’s karma.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I disagree with the last statement even though you’re free to type it

thats old cycling science because it hints one drop isn’t enough, we must re verify after ten days prep time/ it’s a doubt mode fully opposite of everything we’ve done here for three years while logging perfect outcomes and passing anyones seneye audit. As a mod you’re free to redirect anyones work thread with unfounded doubt anytime you want, so that’s a nice freedom I guess.


readers, don’t post here with any form of bacterial doubt you’ll infect the thread with old cycling science

specifically, I don’t want examples where you verified ammonia dropping at all on non digital kits, much less more than once

this is a testless cycling thread for a reason

it’s not to anger you, or draw your ire, it’s simply what we’ve been inspecting for a while / harmlessly


if we aren’t free to separate from old ways we can’t evolve new ways, i want nothing to do with old cycling science here at all, there are five hundred alternate cycling threads using the old ways anyone can select


this thread is one use of bottle bac, ten days, among decent common stacks of live rock then ‘go‘ = begin reefing

Anyone with a calibrated seneye is welcomed to audit any single step and the next iteration of this thread will be three days prep time vs ten: in line with what seneyes show (ammonia control is fast, permanent and not in doubt)

again I want to state: we aren’t here to anger chemists into a battle this is purely a results thread using patterns shown by testers few people have, we redirect away from ammonia fear and into disease preps 100% of the time.

Neither you nor a moderator can control what anyone posts to any thread as long as it does not break the Reef2Reef terms of service.

The fact that I "can" post here an alternative viewpoint (that it is prudent to verify ammonia reduction capacity) is NOT because I am a moderator.

 

[Bbyari]

Like dentistry I guess reefing is not an exact science. The fact that noobs like me are scouring the internet and trying to figure it out and getting tons of advise is helpful but so confusing. Im adding my clowns soon and will come back and give an update on my progress. @Brandon I see you like the Seneye system so maybe I also add this to the equation and track.

 

[brandon429]

In the end it’s fun to just try and press for new ways to get to the same ends of any cycle :) for some reason it’s so fun doing the way that isn’t supposed to work

glad you posted

 

[Bbyari]

Hi just wanted to give a quick update. I added my clowns a week ago and they are doing very well. Eating great and moving well. I have also added a very cool vibrant green color Trachyphyllia and something else I forgot the name that my LFS told me its a beginner coral. Here is a pic of the unknown coral:)

 

[brandon429]

Looking great, plus those guys just imported a million more cycling bac adhered to their slimy surfaces :) you’re off and reefing solidly

 

[Bbyari]

Looking great, plus those guys just imported a million more cycling bac adhered to their slimy surfaces :) you’re off and reefing solidly

I guess since everyone shares prameters here are mine from this morning.
Temp: 77.6
Sal: 1.026- hanna
PH: 8.2-hanna
NH3: 0.0- Salfert
NO2: 0.0
NO3: 9

 

[brandon429]

We only got lucky the digital kit shows zero

the real fun, the usual standard, would be if it showed .5 and you were having to resist the urge to think your whole reef was dying and that you didn’t need two extra bottles of bacteria

we would be using the # of days your tank had water in it as the test meter instead, to hold course