How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[brandon429]

Team,

@KirbyM just provided us with valuable update information several days after bioload entry, and feeding.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/s...est-results-please.867054/page-2#post-9499840
In every way that's a wanted example of applying and testing updated cycling science.

That is a streamlined easy test for our unique approach:

-time dates met


-bioload start date met on assigned date in safe conditions, plus days to carry now and load test the water all fine.

-no factor of nitrite at all

*nobody says five days is captain morgan pose time, but going off prior pages here it is heh. I truly believe K's tank is cycled insofar as all carried bioload is not burnt or harmed in any way, any degree of tank cleaning or water change work will not unstick the cycle, the tank can simply be used in the ways post-cycle reefs can be used.


Thank you for the updates also see if we can get a 6 mo update too! long term tracking will make our results even rarer as a group all doing and testing the same approach.

 

[brandon429]

Team


its really important to go out and read current cycling threads here in this forum, and especially in the chemistry forum and the general discussion forum.

Are they timely? Do posters have a general idea when their tank can be used?





what we collect here is live time accountability. If our method kills someone's reef we stop using the method, there's a high bar for the fun here...good thing its free :)

We are interested in studying how assigned start date cycling does better or worse than open ended, wait for all zero ammonia and nitrite cycling.



it has been literal peace here for a year now and with simple setpoints for each approach I expect the trend will continue

When you read other cycling threads do the posters with the help tank seem happy using the current rule set? Are any of them dosing multiple bottles of bacteria? When can the poster expect to be finished? What about test confounds like prime use, was that discovered? Were they more dependent on test kits or less dependent after applying the other means of cycling for all the parameters?

 

[NicolasToro]

Tank update:
First of all thanks Brandon for the all the information in battling algae issues in the new tank.
Went through a big diathoms bloom a few weeks ago but is going down and the cleanup crew is working 24/7 taking care of it.
Currently there are 6 fishes in the tank an anemone and some corals and im surprised everything is doing well even though it is a new setup.
Here are some pics of the reef this morning.

 

[brandon429]

its really wonderful and clear and going through the development stages we love to see, that will be all coralline by 2023 :) :)

these pictures and feedback are so valuable, we're interested in the macro measure here/how things look on the overall scale and scope of the tank.

how the surface area is positioned in the tank..the relative bioload that challenges it daily, the clear water and the number of feedings our timely cycle approach endures...how fish behave day to day

updated cycling science isn't about hyperfocus on one or two parameters its about that update shown above and how new cyclers can trust methods to get them there, thank you!
B

 

[brandon429]

100% unstuck cycle with assigned start date, nitrite positive start

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/water-changes-during-cycling.869422/#post-9526140


this thread is meant to test the opposite of the old cycle methods. What we gauge is how fish look how the tank and corals looked after the assigned start date. we are open to unsticking cycles for another year straight, for sure.



post your cycle challenge, a pic of your arrangement, I’ll give you a start date, we inspect that date thereafter. That’s the deal :)


_______________________________________________________________

Look! A one year update of our very first work example from page one, thread#1 up top

now this really cements the read as a prime example of unsticking a cycle with a full water change
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/100-water-change.752693/page-4

 

[scottworland]

Question.. new tank setup but I have an existing marine tank that's been setup for two years now.

New tank was setup with Caribsea Arg alive sand and recycled reef rock that I bleach cured before creating my Scape. Once setup I used Dr Tim's ammonia to dose to 2ppm then added a bottle of Fritz turbo start 900 I also added two bio bricks which had been seeded in my original tank and also removed some other media from the original tank and placed it in the sump of the new tank. 14 days later ammonia is zero (has been for about a week), nitrite it 1.5 and nitrate is off the chart (100ppm Salifert test kit effected by the nitrite I can imagine).

I've read a lot of posts on this thread but want some clarity. Where do I go from here? My other tank was setup similar and never had this issue. Thanks in advance

 

[brandon429]

Thank you for posting, we specifically ignore nitrite here to earn these results and your new setup is ready because both those strains of bottle bac make the tank carry bioload without any wait time, you’ve given some wait time plus verified ammonia control is in place so it’s all set

nitrite is neutral in display tank reefing so whether the test is right or not won’t even matter at all. Once fish are in the setup pls add pics of the tank after a few days running, we track the final outcomes here of the assigned start dates with pics of the system carrying the intended bioload working just fine


additionally, two weeks is right at the time it takes for aged materials imported to transmit the working bacteria to the inert surfaces, even if you’d used zero bottle bac given fourteen days this system would still be ready :)

it’s uber-ready

 

[scottworland]

Thank you for posting, we specifically ignore nitrite here to earn these results and your new setup is ready because both those strains of bottle bac make the tank carry bioload without any wait time, you’ve given some wait time plus verified ammonia control is in place so it’s all set

nitrite is neutral in display tank reefing so whether the test is right or not won’t even matter at all. Once fish are in the setup pls add pics of the tank after a few days running, we track the final outcomes here of the assigned start dates with pics of the system carrying the intended bioload working just fine


additionally, two weeks is right at the time it takes for aged materials imported to transmit the working bacteria to the inert surfaces, even if you’d used zero bottle bac given fourteen days this system would still be ready :)

it’s uber-ready

Thanks Brandon. I normally do a water change post cycle and can see from all these posts that a 100% change is recommended. Is this still the case?

I have two clowns waiting to go so will be more than happy to share the result etc.

Thanks for the guidance

 

[brandon429]

No I believe it’s fine as is, those big changes were for the dosers of maximum amnts of ammonia that sat swirling for two weeks this one is all clear, the nitrite is totally neutral due to our salinity in these setups and it may already be gone anyway but just registering present anyway. Here’s a prime example of someone registering false nitrite in a running reef

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/warter-parameters-help.869029/#post-9512947
1.0 nitrite in a full 2 mos running and stocked reef using all cured rocks cycled from a prior tank, there’s no way that system has the ammonia or nitrite it shows. Yours is new enough the nitrite is likely present in low levels, but it’s still neutral shown above well after the time a cycling chart shows for nitrite control. We wont ever know if there’s nitrite or not in anyone’s reef given the results above. We’d need to see digital hanna nitrite to know

 

[scottworland]

No I believe it’s fine as is, those big changes were for the dosers of maximum amnts of ammonia that sat swirling for two weeks this one is all clear, the nitrite is totally neutral due to our salinity in these setups and it may already be gone anyway but just registering present anyway. Here’s a prime example of someone registering false nitrite in a running reef

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/warter-parameters-help.869029/#post-9512947
1.0 nitrite in a full 2 mos running and stocked reef using all cured rocks cycled from a prior tank, there’s no way that system has the ammonia or nitrite it shows. Yours is new enough the nitrite is likely present in low levels, but it’s still neutral shown above well after the time a cycling chart shows for nitrite control. We wont ever know if there’s nitrite or not in anyone’s reef given the results above. We’d need to see digital hanna nitrite to know

Sooooo...... I'm too attached to my clowns to test this straight away but I have acclimated a hermit, an astraea snail and a little frag of toxic green Kenyan tree I had. Polyps are out on the frag and the crab and snail are off exploring and have been fine for the past couple of hours. Let's see what the next couple of days bring. I'll keep you posted!

 

[brandon429]

Perfectly reasonable test and that’s a great tank, massive surface area and laser clear pics. Perfect

that roving wanderer is looking for two cheeseburger pellets snacks in the new place

 

[Kayanarka]

Hi, so I am cycling a new tank to be a hospital tank for my fish. I had an outbreak of ich that you can read about here:

Thread 'Tang showing ich, new QT setup Red Sea 250' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tang-showing-ich-new-qt-setup-red-sea-250.870209/

For surface area I am using two bowls of aragalite live sand and a bio block in the sump:

The tank fill was completed on Saturday 11/6/21.

To create amonia I placed two silversides in the sand bowls on Saturday night. This is what they look like now:

I also added a bottle of Turbo Start based on LFS recommendation. I added 1 cap full of Stability on Saturday and one cap full on Sunday.

After reading more about the cycles here I figure I don't have to bother with the stability.

What should I do now. I am not in any rush. My fish in primary display seem fine and I do not feel pressured to get them into this hospital tank. Because I am not in a rush I have not run any testing other then salinity.

Should I remove the silversides? Add some fish food? What kind, how much? Water changes? How much how often. I have temp set to 81 since this will be a medication tank for ich elimination, is that too warm for cycling?

I was getting nervous reading about these 100% water changes. Making all the saltwater for this tank really put me down. My ankle was horrible and I slept all day and night Saturday after I finished. The thought of 100% water change was making me want to throw in the towel. Just making 20 gallons each week for my main display is a chore with one leg.

Since I am in no rush at all I really want to keep this simple as opposed to trying to make it fast. When the tank is ready I will put the two mean clowns in first since I almost hope they die.. that's mean I should not say that, but they are such bullies!!!

I just took a quick look at the seneye monitor and it looks to have some pretty horrible reviews....

Oh. Please what can I use to get oxygen in this tank instead of the bubblers, what a mess they make!!!

Not sure what else to ask. I look forward to advice. Thanks everyone!

 

[brandon429]

I really welcome this challenge for sure, thank you for posting

we can get it ready without the full water changes :)

remove silverside fish now if possible they’ve fed the dosed bacteria well enough

**the challenge here is your active surface area is sequestered away from direct flow** water doesn’t flow through that brick, it flows around it taking path of least resistance
almost zero water flows into that brick, they’re designed for denitrification vs nitrification which that qt tank needs.

water does not flow through the sand it flows over the top and away only touching the bare top edges.


Water changes are how they mitigate ammonia issues in the fish disease forum in quarantine tanks as fish there cause a rise every few days, but it doesn’t have to be 100%. some make water will still be needed just not the daunting total change like we use for folks who blasted huge amounts of liquid ammonia.

The number one best thing you can do for the qt setup is put better surface area meant for bioload carry into the path of channeled and direct flow, you need a big cheap hang on back filter from wal mart or Amazon packed with small bioballs, plastic surface area and the filter design channels water right through them correctly. Also, a cheap huge bubbler sponge filter is ideal and you’d just deal with small saltcreep issues cuz that’s the hassle of creating actual flow through cheap filtration but it’s reducing the need for water changes which are the big job.


to monitor ammonia here and know when partial water changes are needed get an ammonia badge from seachem. if no changes are made to surface area positioning then it will rise to toxic levels on the badge faster than if you have the hang on back system or the bubbler sponge system in place. Many quarantines are just bare pvc pipes and a tiny hang on back filter


given that exact arrangement I’d do the largest water change you can do, to export silverside rot and start with cleanest water possible for the fish in care. Have the badge in place and do water changes as it rises

regarding wait time, use time it’s ready once you change out some of this cycling water back for clean fresh made water. You can dose back in a little of the Fritz bacteria into the clean water and when the fish is put in he will feed the bacteria, fritz works fast out of the bottle there isn’t a need to wait two weeks for it to settle onto surfaces

yours isn’t a bacteria challenge it’s a surface area positioning challenge

if you leave the design as is, without the new filter additions it’ll still work to carry the hospital fish but the guiding changes based on the badge levels will be needed more often than if the filter designs were directed and channeled

exchanging the brick for a bunch of bioballs packed in the sump would help and be a nice mid ground balance without having to buy a new filter setup to add

a bubbling sponge filter is cheap and very effective too if you want to lower the degree of guiding water changes the system will require when fish are in tow. It goes in the display so that wastewater there is in quick contact vs swirling around waiting to be sent to the sump.

 

[threebuoys]

I really welcome this challenge for sure, thank you for posting

we can get it ready without the full water changes :)

I like your response here. (Still wish you'd write an article that uses much of what you have in your first post in this thread plus any additional conclusions you've reached in your quest.)

 

[Tamale]

Two weeks with fish in system since my Oct 23 post. Clown is doing great and eating. Ammonia remains undetectable even after I began feeding once a day over the last few days.

Ammonia-0 per API/RedSea/Seneye
Nitrite-0 per API/RedSea
Nitrate-7.7 per Hanna
Phos-0.0 per Hanna (looking to raise slightly)
Ph- 8.2 per Seneye

 

[brandon429]

Thank you! After pics of fish in the tank + clear water are what we thrive on

seneye plus common ammonia kits in alignment is rare rare cake icing

 

[Ocypode sinensis]

Hi, Brandon
I've got a tank that had been cycled for a month, It once hold a rock beauty, an Atlantic blue tang, a four-eye butterfly and a royal gramma, but I lost the previous two due to an acute bacterial infection few days ago. I saved the four-eye by dipping it in Reef rally pro for 20 mins.
I always get weird readings from salifert test kits, after reading your posts I'm pretty sure that it's cycled, but still I have some questions:
You mentioned that ammonia is what we are looking about, the ammonia reading is also pretty high, even after dividing it by 10, but I don't see anything wrong with the fish and inverts( except the tricky sponge and the gorg who was ***** by diatoms), why?
You mentioned that the existent of NO2 will affect NO3 reading, does this stand true with Salifert test kits? If so, how do I calculate my actual NO3 reading with the NO2 reading?
Another question not actually relating to this: should I use filter floss in my HOB filter? My build thread is https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/20g-build.871316/#post-9551041
@brandon429

 

[Ocypode sinensis]

Hi, Brandon
I've got a tank that had been cycled for a month, It once hold a rock beauty, an Atlantic blue tang, a four-eye butterfly and a royal gramma, but I lost the previous two due to an acute bacterial infection few days ago. I saved the four-eye by dipping it in Reef rally pro for 20 mins.
I always get weird readings from salifert test kits, after reading your posts I'm pretty sure that it's cycled, but still I have some questions:
You mentioned that ammonia is what we are looking about, the ammonia reading is also pretty high, even after dividing it by 10, but I don't see anything wrong with the fish and inverts( except the tricky sponge and the gorg who was ***** by diatoms), why?
You mentioned that the existent of NO2 will affect NO3 reading, does this stand true with Salifert test kits? If so, how do I calculate my actual NO3 reading with the NO2 reading?
Another question not actually relating to this: should I use filter floss in my HOB filter? My build thread is https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/20g-build.871316/#post-9551041
@brandon429

I'm open to any options as long as I can do it, including 100% water change.
However, it should be noticed that I use tap water since I can't install a RODI unit in my dorm.

 

[brandon429]

Hey I did not get alerts just happened across your post, this is really relevant to what we study 100%

we need the pic of your tank to contrast with those test pics above

then I’ll have a neat analysis on it thank you for posting

hey did you add prime at all to the water along the way

also fully agreed: no uncycled reef could ever carry rhan much fish plus daily feed they’d never make one week. By description alone it seems we are about to see a rare big misread for Red Sea, let’s press for more clues first

any prime or water conditioners dosed for the tap water
Those cause these misreads above

 

[Ocypode sinensis]

Hey I did not get alerts just happened across your post, this is really relevant to what we study 100%

we need the pic of your tank to contrast with those test pics above

then I’ll have a neat analysis on it thank you for posting

hey did you add prime at all to the water along the way

also fully agreed: no uncycled reef could ever carry rhan much fish plus daily feed they’d never make one week. By description alone it seems we are about to see a rare big misread for Red Sea, let’s press for more clues first

any prime or water conditioners dosed for the tap water
Those cause these misreads above

I stopped dosing prime to DT after I read about it interfering with testing, I use it only in TTM buckets. BTW the test kit is not the Red Sea ones but Salifert.