How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[brandon429]

any fish food will do, we only wanted the minerals and N and P and carbon and protein (protein breaks down into feed ammonia too by action of contamination bacteria during setup, an all in one trick studied by Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread)


darn good job on fish preps disease

yes on sponge filters they don’t bind meds, have high surface area and strong flow- through, fully agreed.


Additionally: some folks like testing and want to test, a three part ammonia proofing after day ten is acceptable per this thread

100% Water Change

So in my previous thread, I had an ammonia issue that was out of hand. As suggested, I did a 100% WC and now i’m wondering when I should start adding fish back. If anyone has suggestions, let me know!

www.reef2reef.com

that’s three pictures of ammonia over one 24 hour period, that mechanism aligns cheap test kits very well. For picture #2 don’t spike above .5 ppm, specifically don’t spike as high as he did, stop when the kit shows .5 max and if you do overspike it, don’t post the 2ppm reading anyway you’d do a water change and redo the test to a maximum .5 ppm reading for the second pic.



I recommend skipping all that, you can tell for 25 pages we have basic timing down and covered. But if you do decide to test, then that’s the only way we want to see it relayed here (removing test read errors is our whole intention is why) and for pic #2 do not input more ammonia than it takes to get a .5 maximum level for pic#2. You can skip it though, for sure your testless cycle will be ready in ten days or just round up to two weeks of stewing, it can’t fail.

 

[discostew]

Would the qt tank still cycle in ten days though? Less rock and filtering since it’s only sponge?

 

[brandon429]

It’ll be cycled to the degree the surface area allows. Meaning that setup won’t handle as much ammonia as a test tank stacked in rocks will handle but it will handle a small fish’s bioload relative to the surface area being used as long as all the ratios and setup details are copied from another quarantine setup showing the arrangement to work to carry fish in the example setup

in the disease forum if someone is caring for two clowns in a similar qt, and you make one and bottle bac cycle + fish food feed it and wait 10-14 days then your setup will carry them too, use an alert badge in the qt tank so you know when to do water changes


after being fed and given two weeks wait time any surfaces in the water will be covered in bac

 

[brandon429]

Be sure and read all of post #1/ page 1 it covers quarantine cycling using an example post that way all details are covered

 

[discostew]

Be sure and read all of post #1/ page 1 it covers quarantine cycling using an example post that way all details are covered

Just did thanks! One more question maybe not cycling but, my goal (when the tank gets going) is to initially get 2 pre-quarantined clowns and pre-quarantined CUC. Because of shipping costs it makes more sense to get all 3 at once. Should i just put the 2 clowns in the display tank and hold the CUC in another qt separate tank till i know the tank can hold the bio load and then just feed the snails flakes or nori? Or do you think the 45 gal cycled tank could hold 2 fish and CUC (5-6 snails) off the bat?

 

[brandon429]

this is a very good cycle challenge coming up as that’s a stepped up cost dedication/ initial investment to doing things right and our thread better deliver a good cycle because what good is some cycling rules if they can’t align to deliver on the high end starts ~ every time no losses


the reef cleaners cuc packages are like 175 mixed cuc all in one bag lol, that above is reasonable and for sure can go in together. It’s not overdoing any bioloading for that planned system if you’ll have a really good rock stack in the tank, sand if you like, and it all sits 10-14 days with a couple pinches fish food + doses of those two top bacteria from a bottle.

completely solid plan here I can’t wait to see it come together. You using pre qt fish might even be a first for us really, if others did it and I missed that detail / apologies this plan stands out among our pages.

*the last few months in other forums we had a couple cycle debate threads for new tanks that were losing clownfish fast upon setup/ of course the bottle bac and cycle were debated but the acclimation they used was also even more in question. One guy was drip acclimating for two hours, and the crowd was saying when he opened the shipping bag and it sat floating in tank water two hours the ammonia buildup in the bag zapped them, not from the tank. The only way I can see your initial investment going wrong is some type of hidden acclimation trick missing for shipped animals vs what we can get away with when the local pet shop makes a bag and we bring it right home. My recommend is reach out to someone from the fish forum here at rtr or even make an acclimation thread so that best planning can be ready for that part. Since I don’t keep marine fish I honestly am not sure of the right way to move in shipped fish (I only keep pico reefs but I sure like cycling large reefs remotely lol)

so far in planning the quarantine tank won’t be needed, those are clean start sources and your dry start tank can’t have any disease. Truly after going this far to start it right, you ought to consider doing some form of stepped up feeding to bolster their immune systems and overall quality feed input considering the investment above normal for the start here. There’s dry food low effort feed options, what most use, then there’s Paul B quality effort where occasionally you’re accessing mussels and clams from the seafood aisle in a store and feeding the fish actual human prepped human seafood occasionally or often. Some pet shops sell black worms or live feed, heck even enriched live artemia count as stepped up feeding effort to match the stepped up planning for the new reef.

this really is a great effort we are lucky to have the planning example in place.

 

[brandon429]

Suddenly add 20 fish to Established tank

Hi Reefers I need some advice from experts here. So my 65 gallon tank is about 2 years old and was housing 4 fish and around 20+ anemone. Recently I converted into a clownfish harem by adding 20 clownfish all at one time. Suppose 20 is a good number for them not to fight. Right now...

www.reef2reef.com

disco that thread shows the kind of post I build my bioload carry predictions from…if we started a poll in any forum without that example and asked “can you instantly add twenty fish to a reef tank” you know the resounding answer would be 100% no it’ll spike ammonia. Bacteria don’t have time to build up.

but there it is

ammonia never spiked, these systems including yours upcoming use so much surface area/ rocks stacked in the middle of the display/ there’s a shock absorber effect all reef tanks have: they can take instant sustained load challenges within reason

of course that other tank has more maturity than the one you’re building but it still shows in scaling why I’m sure any reef that can carry two clowns plus their feed without crashing can certainly carry two clowns and some cuc members. The prediction comes from specific threads like that one where loading was increased truly dramatically and the system handled it anyway.


alternate examples of testing include the official sand rinse thread which is fifty pages not of increasing bioload to test, but fifty pages of -instantly removing sandbeds and or some rocks- which then makes the remaining surface area have to step up twice over just to handle the original bioload. Inverse testing by removing surface area is still a valid way to test bioload carry predictions in pattern.

 

[discostew]

this is a very good cycle challenge coming up as that’s a stepped up cost dedication/ initial investment to doing things right and our thread better deliver a good cycle because what good is some cycling rules if they can’t align to deliver on the high end starts ~ every time no losses


the reef cleaners cuc packages are like 175 mixed cuc all in one bag lol, that above is reasonable and for sure can go in together. It’s not overdoing any bioloading for that planned system if you’ll have a really good rock stack in the tank, sand if you like, and it all sits 10-14 days with a couple pinches fish food + doses of those two top bacteria from a bottle.

completely solid plan here I can’t wait to see it come together. You using pre qt fish might even be a first for us really, if others did it and I missed that detail / apologies this plan stands out among our pages.

*the last few months in other forums we had a couple cycle debate threads for new tanks that were losing clownfish fast upon setup/ of course the bottle bac and cycle were debated but the acclimation they used was also even more in question. One guy was drip acclimating for two hours, and the crowd was saying when he opened the shipping bag and it sat floating in tank water two hours the ammonia buildup in the bag zapped them, not from the tank. The only way I can see your initial investment going wrong is some type of hidden acclimation trick missing for shipped animals vs what we can get away with when the local pet shop makes a bag and we bring it right home. My recommend is reach out to someone from the fish forum here at rtr or even make an acclimation thread so that best planning can be ready for that part. Since I don’t keep marine fish I honestly am not sure of the right way to move in shipped fish (I only keep pico reefs but I sure like cycling large reefs remotely lol)

so far in planning the quarantine tank won’t be needed, those are clean start sources and your dry start tank can’t have any disease. Truly after going this far to start it right, you ought to consider doing some form of stepped up feeding to bolster their immune systems and overall quality feed input considering the investment above normal for the start here. There’s dry food low effort feed options, what most use, then there’s Paul B quality effort where occasionally you’re accessing mussels and clams from the seafood aisle in a store and feeding the fish actual human prepped human seafood occasionally or often. Some pet shops sell black worms or live feed, heck even enriched live artemia count as stepped up feeding effort to match the stepped up planning for the new reef.

this really is a great effort we are lucky to have the planning example in place.

Thanks for the insight. Im a few weeks to a month from getting started, will update when I do. Still planning. Regarding the pinch of food. Is it just once for the cycle or multiple times?

Regarding feeding the clowns, I have not begun to research that. To be honest I am not sure if I will go for the "gourmet" options. I know they may be better, but I'll need to look into it. I do have to weigh the time/effort required ( I know reefing uses a lot of it) to do such a diet vs the "usual" easier feeding methods.

 

[brandon429]

If it was my tank I’d do about two good sized pinches but finely ground up in palm then added. Just one round is ok, let it all stew / all set. Worlds simplest reef cycle

 

[ReefRusty]

Day 5 of adding a small amount of live rock to extra 35kgs of dry rock. Used bottle bacteria Dr tims. Prior to this all level read 0 and maybe 2ppm nitrates due to using NSW.

Dosed ammonia as required if not below and levels have show 4+ppm for 2 days now for ammonia.

Nitrates at 3ppm

This was all due to a faulty salifert test kit that read 0 ammonia every day and still till this day reads 0. Yet my red sea kit is off the charts.

Wait it out and let ammonia be converted? Or complete a WC? If so how much?

 

[brandon429]

Two points apply if we are going to troubleshoot that tank here in this thread where we absolutely don’t use other cycling rules:

1. never dose 2 ppm to any cycling reef. Calculate via volume and ammonia % the degree of input to attain half a ppm, that’s the max amount. For future readers here’s a calculator for that measure:

Calculator

fishforums.net

you don’t need to redo the dose, we can work your tank as is since we have already done a prior cycle for you in chat. Your tank will be fine now as well, but in the future readers need to know step one is do not dose 2 ppm ammonia into a cycled reef, we don’t use Dr Tims cycle rules here we use a fully opposing set of rules to attain 26 pages of exact start dates that worked. Dr Tims rules will make you think you are stalled and six new bottles of bac will be sold to unstick it. It’s not his system that misleads, it’s not using seneye that misleads. His approach works fine if someone is using a $180 ammonia digital tester. If someone is using a non digital kit, stall madness ensues.

2. after ten days stewing and a full water change, bioload added will live, simple as that. You aren’t reporting a three part calibrated ammonia movement which we show on page one, post one, you are reporting non seneye single tests for ammonia which is the #1 data set we do not use here ever, because those cause false stall headaches. This entire thread shows living fish, not single point test reads thats how we differ from other threads. The fish you add will live and we don’t want to see the non digital test kits whatsoever.

so to fix your reef, post a full tank pic and don’t report ammonia levels any further, it’s pics and # of days wait from here on out. I’ll add a clear start date for your system after we see pics which shows where the live rock component exists in the flow chain.

 

[ReefRusty]

See attached full photos.
5kgs live rock (red rock)and media block in sump

2nd December is when it got wet with bottle Dr tims

 

[brandon429]

Nice setup for sure, very nice scaping, sump design for sure.

the live rock component is tiny, fractional, but what it does well is cast its ready bacteria across the tank in addition to your bio block that was cycled and in addition to bottle bac used which instantly carries bioload safely. It’ll be hard for you to omit and ignore the non digital nh4 ammonia test readings but that’s the chief thing we did here all this year, so we need to.


your tanks ammonia if read on seneye is in the middle hundredths ppm nh3 and likely as low as the thousandths ppm nh3 right now, even though cheap test kits show otherwise. Page one post two directly shows why I’d claim that, give it a read. That’s a seneye in the middle hundredths (safe zone) while api is pegged green, danger zone, the non digital kits have a marked lag time to show when the true drop occurred. On December 15th change about half the water and begin, add some life you’ll see they live fine. Don’t test for ammonia using the cheap kits even then, don’t use them. Judge your cycle efficacy based on how life reacts, it will act normal. If you added a fish right now it’d be fine, there’s no ammonia backed up here we are just waiting the extra days + half water changed to handle any unstated variables that may be in play. If I’m not wrong that tank had already been running ten days, this is 1000% an issue of non digital testing, just like all other stalls are.


to complete our analysis for this thread and I’m glad you posted, this is a common headache for many cyclers, show pics of that reef on Dec 15th with fish in it after the half water change. leave out ammonia testing unless it comes from a seneye ran on that tank.

 

[brandon429]

One handy booster trick, like the warp skip levels on Mario brothers 1:

if you see any cyano or diatoms on the white rocks areas, i.e. any new growths that have transmitted to the sand or rocks, its all done right then and you can move up the date and water change right now and begin, and life will live. This is the benthic growths verification rule of cycling where applicable, those growths only occur after basic ammonia control is in place. They may not be there by December 15th and it’ll still be ready, but should they appear ahead of time that moves up your actionable date.

 

[ReefRusty]

5 days its been running for now. 10 days to go to reach day 15 if what you say happens before then amazing the start date moves forward.

Thanks for the compliment on the tank layout. And again I have a trochus snail still moving around the live rock at top of tank..

 

[brandon429]

good deal. lets go till Dec 15th to handle all variables and you'll be set. Only move up the action date if you see spots of new cyano or brown diatoms on the formerly dry surfaces, if you see that then its all set.

Non digital ammonia testing really is this bad lol, I know it seems like a crazy claim but watch and see things will be fine given our safety days. add in one pinch of ground up fish food today too, that's a carbon boost Dr. Reef discovered is powerful insurance for getting tanks ready faster, that matches the kinds of bacteria they're selling us in these bottles.

 

[brandon429]

are those white rocks already dotted in brown growths or did they show up that way>?

white rock systems are usually 100% white was why wondering

 

[ReefRusty]

I know you say non digital but my LFS confirmed with there $3500 digital testing equipment that it read 4.5? On day 4

 

[ReefRusty]

are those white rocks already dotted in brown growths or did they show up that way>?

white rock systems are usually 100% white was why wondering

They were once live rock some time ago and have been dry for 10 months so hence the not so pure white

 

[brandon429]

I dont want any non digital testing here to confuse the thread, that is not what your nh3 ammonia levels are at. Going forward we use how animals behave. Old cycling science is hell bent on selling us asymptomatic ammonia poisoning and it doesnt work that way at all. when ammonia poisoning is happening, things die like kidney failure style death.
water smells, things go cloudy due to mass bacterial uptake in the water


old cycling science wants us to believe a tank in clear water, after having dosed bac that instantly controls ammonia, with a living animal in it acting fine, past day ten on a cycling chart where ammonia always drops, is poisoned. Sometimes folks dose Prime or Amquel and don't reveal that, which will directly make a $3500 non digital tester misread, its why we dont want to know single point non digital testing here going forward, even if you didnt use prime. Your snail would be dead. If you inputted ten times the degree of ammonia we say to use, then the half water change on Dec 15th will take care of that to safe levels and you will be fine.


when you add fish and they live, feed, breathe easily, every day, and that lfs ripoff meter still says 4 ppm ammonia keep that torture to yourself don't report it here, we only want pics of the 100% normal looking tank. That lfs is selling bottles and bottles and bottles of cycling bac using their approach.