ReefRusty
Valuable Member
10000% agree with this, the snail would be dead correct so thats why it got me thinking.
I also have alot more live rock from my 2 ft tank that can still go into my DT or sump of the new tank if need be too.
How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle
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I also have alot more live rock from my 2 ft tank that can still go into my DT or sump of the new tank if need be too.
OP
OP
One thing I'm interested to know though: go to the lfs and take a picture of the actual ammonia reader showing a sample off their display which we know to be cycled. If its not in between .001-.009 then they're ripping people off on a daily basis. But I dont want to see the verbal report of what it measured, want to see the phone pic of it in action on a known cycled display reef.
OP
OP
I honestly am interested in seeing that measuring device's readout on a cell phone pic on a sample from their display to calibrate it, that would be 100% gold for us here. The statement above .001-.009 is the nh3 level any cycled reef runs at, by rule, and a $180 seneye would show it bigtime easy. there is some unspoken confound causing that massive misread they're pumping out to folks and I dont think they even understand why, they're not doing it by design they're simply using old cycling science, the bane of my online reefing existence lol. if you score that pic set for us Ill be forever indebted.
ps
if their meter shows .01-.09 that's an nh4 reading and still decently accurate, but lets see what their display tank water tests at on the exact device telling you your water is above danger zone without any symptoms.
ps
if their meter shows .01-.09 that's an nh4 reading and still decently accurate, but lets see what their display tank water tests at on the exact device telling you your water is above danger zone without any symptoms.
ReefRusty
Valuable Member
Haven't manged to get to the LFS but will tomorrow. however just randomly tested my establish tank with the red sea pro ammonia kit and it read 0-0.1 just a light green/yellow. but on the 4 ft it is off the chart like a Dark BLue not even a dark green. I did throw a little smashed up pellets last night as you mention to give it an extra carbon kick, however not concerned but seeing these results would spin out any new reefer and this is why there are so many issues. Always wonder how these companies get away with it, as this would suggest life would DIE off yet the snail is still moving around without any issue, even onto the new rock off the live rock.
OP
OP
How many drops of ammonia went into the tank to load it up, and what's the gallonage or liters I'm curious what the known starting dose was using that Calc and not any tester. Also look at your ammonia bottle and let me know what % the mix is so I can input that value, curious if your originating dose was above or below 2ppm
ReefRusty
Valuable Member
Do you know what, it was MicroBacter QuikCycl ammonia and there is no % on the solution, cant find anything anywhere on the internet, however as per directions it states 2ml/10 gal of aquarium water. with this I have done 2 lots of 15ml for a 120gal system that includes taking in account rock and sand ect..
As previously stated when testing using my salifert test kit it read 0 or 0.15 every time so got a second opinion and here we are!
As previously stated when testing using my salifert test kit it read 0 or 0.15 every time so got a second opinion and here we are!
OP
OP
Good deal. That helps to know amount entered I'll find their strength mix with some clicking and that will be a nice independent baseline to have.
OP
OP
none of the searches are telling me the % strength mix is it on the rear bottle label/fine print any
they wanted 24 mls for 120 gallons and you input 30 that's not a bad overage, you're at max prob around 3 ppm and the bacteria added will instantly begin working on some...can't be 4+ even with zero bac action. this helps to isolate their readings a bit, that fancy machine they have can't be accurate if it says your setup is 4+ ppm as nh4 as I'm calculating. it needs to show well under 2 ppm next time you validate its test, on your new sample the day you go in plus one of their 100% full up running displays, so we get a comparison of the two on their kit. get pics
I see no reason your test is wrong at home by underreporting; those usually over report and cause the scare. the home kit is what Im betting on/you had multiple bacteria sources in tow that for sure would reduce some of the initial load.
they wanted 24 mls for 120 gallons and you input 30 that's not a bad overage, you're at max prob around 3 ppm and the bacteria added will instantly begin working on some...can't be 4+ even with zero bac action. this helps to isolate their readings a bit, that fancy machine they have can't be accurate if it says your setup is 4+ ppm as nh4 as I'm calculating. it needs to show well under 2 ppm next time you validate its test, on your new sample the day you go in plus one of their 100% full up running displays, so we get a comparison of the two on their kit. get pics
I see no reason your test is wrong at home by underreporting; those usually over report and cause the scare. the home kit is what Im betting on/you had multiple bacteria sources in tow that for sure would reduce some of the initial load.
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ReefRusty
Valuable Member
Exactly nothing on the bottle or anywhere something doesn't seem right. But definitely dosed less than the required amount.
On day 15 - do as much of a water change as possible and its done?
On day 15 - do as much of a water change as possible and its done?
OP
OP
Yes agreed, and if you add fish and they die in an obviously uncycled tank it'll be the first we've seen, so not likely 
that's past the implantation date on any cycling chart, it's longer than bottle bac have been tracked to implanting by Dr Reefs study, you'll have much more volume to dilute starting bioload over a common nano reef, I'm 100% sure it's safe and that nobody's test kit is ever going to agree lol
that's past the implantation date on any cycling chart, it's longer than bottle bac have been tracked to implanting by Dr Reefs study, you'll have much more volume to dilute starting bioload over a common nano reef, I'm 100% sure it's safe and that nobody's test kit is ever going to agree lol
OP
OP
That ammonia has phosphates in it too by design its really good, well rounded i saw
A mere twenty days wait is shown to take for transferred live rock to cast its contribution to inert surfaces as well. All this compound approach is really solid.
A mere twenty days wait is shown to take for transferred live rock to cast its contribution to inert surfaces as well. All this compound approach is really solid.
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Brad Jones
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Hi Brandon - this has been one of the most informative threads on reefing I’ve ever ready.. thank you for your time and effort.. I’m now 99% sure my tank has cycled but I do have a question.
Background: I started my tank on November 27th with 20lbs of CaribSea Life Rock (100% dry) and 15lbs dry sand. My tank is 25g w/ around 16.5 G of actual water. I dosed the tank with a 4oz bottle of Dr Tims One and only and followed the directions exactly. I ran it at 82’F and 18ppt Salinity with my lights 100% off to help bacteria growth. I dosed 66 drops of Dr Tims ammonia chloride on the prescribed days.
Day 1 (11/27) - added Dr TIms & dosed 66 drops of ammonia
Day 2 - NH 1.0 (API kit)
Day 3 - NH 1.0 & Dosed another 66 drops per instructions
Day 4 - NH 3.0+
Day 5 - NH 2.0
Day 6 - NH 2.0 & Dosed another 66 drops per insturctions
Day 7 - NH 3+ & checked for NitrAtes (looked around 20)
Day 8 - NH .25
Day 9 - NH 0.0 (here’s where I started waiting for Nitrites to drop they had been at 2-3 since day 5)
Day 10 - NH 0 (nitrI tes still not moving… start googling - found your thread and read over next few days) also started to drop my temperature a degree or two a day down to 76’F
Day 11 - NH 0 - dosed 33 drops (1/2 the amount as I was concerned amount bacteria starving). Also started to raise my salinity to 35ppt over 48-72 hours
Day 12 - (Today December 8th) NH 0.25 - Temp at 76 - Salinity at 30ppt (will get to 35 tomorrow)
So based on what I’ve learned here I’m 99% sure I’m cycled an could support life… HOWEVER - I’m about to leave on a 7 day work trip and would like your opinion on what to do between tomorrow and December 16th.. to keep the bacteria healthy.. Adding fish or inverts isn’t really an option.
When I get back I plan on doing a 99% water change and getting fish in the tank asap. Cheers!!!
Background: I started my tank on November 27th with 20lbs of CaribSea Life Rock (100% dry) and 15lbs dry sand. My tank is 25g w/ around 16.5 G of actual water. I dosed the tank with a 4oz bottle of Dr Tims One and only and followed the directions exactly. I ran it at 82’F and 18ppt Salinity with my lights 100% off to help bacteria growth. I dosed 66 drops of Dr Tims ammonia chloride on the prescribed days.
Day 1 (11/27) - added Dr TIms & dosed 66 drops of ammonia
Day 2 - NH 1.0 (API kit)
Day 3 - NH 1.0 & Dosed another 66 drops per instructions
Day 4 - NH 3.0+
Day 5 - NH 2.0
Day 6 - NH 2.0 & Dosed another 66 drops per insturctions
Day 7 - NH 3+ & checked for NitrAtes (looked around 20)
Day 8 - NH .25
Day 9 - NH 0.0 (here’s where I started waiting for Nitrites to drop they had been at 2-3 since day 5)
Day 10 - NH 0 (nitrI tes still not moving… start googling - found your thread and read over next few days) also started to drop my temperature a degree or two a day down to 76’F
Day 11 - NH 0 - dosed 33 drops (1/2 the amount as I was concerned amount bacteria starving). Also started to raise my salinity to 35ppt over 48-72 hours
Day 12 - (Today December 8th) NH 0.25 - Temp at 76 - Salinity at 30ppt (will get to 35 tomorrow)
So based on what I’ve learned here I’m 99% sure I’m cycled an could support life… HOWEVER - I’m about to leave on a 7 day work trip and would like your opinion on what to do between tomorrow and December 16th.. to keep the bacteria healthy.. Adding fish or inverts isn’t really an option.
When I get back I plan on doing a 99% water change and getting fish in the tank asap. Cheers!!!
ReefRusty
Valuable Member
This thread has been very helpful, on that note the LSF magical machine must be faulty as they did a test on their own tanks and it read 0.9ppm which for an established tank wouldn't have much inhabitants left.
Also mine still reads above 2ppm amd added a small shrimp and swimming around for last 6 hours, but also my Nitrates have gone from 3ppm to 10ppm. Will be doing a full WC on Tuesday when back from holidays and away we go
Also mine still reads above 2ppm amd added a small shrimp and swimming around for last 6 hours, but also my Nitrates have gone from 3ppm to 10ppm. Will be doing a full WC on Tuesday when back from holidays and away we go
OP
OP
How strange agreed Rusty.
.09 would have been ok (as nh4, translates into .009 nh3) but tenths ppm is just an unacceptable reading in a running reef. A nine dollar api kit is better than that, heck 90% of the posted reads from api do seem correct in context after nh3 conversion (common .25 everyone sees translates into .025 nh3 which for color guess kits isn’t too far off the digital actual mark, and is safe zone anyway)
that weird tester is helping them sell a thousand extra bottles of support bacteria.
****old cycling science puts the cycle in constant state of completion flux, including potential incompletes, if a test kit says so. They don’t question test kit readings when using old cycling science. New cycling science knows basic ammonia command happens on a very predictable timescale given certain arrangements, well enough that sellers can always bring ready reefs to reef conventions to sell us things and nobody ever stalls out or misses a chance to sell us things*** we use these known timescales to audit the test kits, not the cycles, when using updated cycling science. the big water change on the known action date for the mix removes all doubt and removes algae feed for the new tank.
Brad thanks for posting! you posted double command and control within ten days, not just once like we normally used. I’m flatly amazed it dropped twice vs sticking at 8 ppm thats some quite active bacteria and you arranged the environment for ideals in ways we never care to implement, maybe that’s why it works so powerfully above per Dr Tims arrangements for salinity and light and temp all perfected. Well done, that post helps us to keep honing this 10-14 day repeating time frame this thread focuses on as a benchmark. I’m 100% sure if you left this arrangement unfed for a year and came back, that’s one straight year fallow, it’ll still be fully cycled. The room is feeding micro contamination inputs daily, by the minute, and they compound. As we speak a gnat you didn’t see landed in the tank and sunk. When the room heater kicks on, bacteria on suspended aerial rafts that have nothing to do with marine tanks get into the water, temporarily bloom due to hydration, then die because they’re not marine suited. Their collective mass degrades into feed: trace ammonia trace nutrients, theyre carbon based organisms…open topped tanks in a home self feed my example above isn’t hyperbole. If you keep basics in place like topoff/ general salinity control it is not possible to starve out a cycle unless we dry (desiccate) boil or freeze.
.09 would have been ok (as nh4, translates into .009 nh3) but tenths ppm is just an unacceptable reading in a running reef. A nine dollar api kit is better than that, heck 90% of the posted reads from api do seem correct in context after nh3 conversion (common .25 everyone sees translates into .025 nh3 which for color guess kits isn’t too far off the digital actual mark, and is safe zone anyway)
that weird tester is helping them sell a thousand extra bottles of support bacteria.
****old cycling science puts the cycle in constant state of completion flux, including potential incompletes, if a test kit says so. They don’t question test kit readings when using old cycling science. New cycling science knows basic ammonia command happens on a very predictable timescale given certain arrangements, well enough that sellers can always bring ready reefs to reef conventions to sell us things and nobody ever stalls out or misses a chance to sell us things*** we use these known timescales to audit the test kits, not the cycles, when using updated cycling science. the big water change on the known action date for the mix removes all doubt and removes algae feed for the new tank.
Brad thanks for posting! you posted double command and control within ten days, not just once like we normally used. I’m flatly amazed it dropped twice vs sticking at 8 ppm thats some quite active bacteria and you arranged the environment for ideals in ways we never care to implement, maybe that’s why it works so powerfully above per Dr Tims arrangements for salinity and light and temp all perfected. Well done, that post helps us to keep honing this 10-14 day repeating time frame this thread focuses on as a benchmark. I’m 100% sure if you left this arrangement unfed for a year and came back, that’s one straight year fallow, it’ll still be fully cycled. The room is feeding micro contamination inputs daily, by the minute, and they compound. As we speak a gnat you didn’t see landed in the tank and sunk. When the room heater kicks on, bacteria on suspended aerial rafts that have nothing to do with marine tanks get into the water, temporarily bloom due to hydration, then die because they’re not marine suited. Their collective mass degrades into feed: trace ammonia trace nutrients, theyre carbon based organisms…open topped tanks in a home self feed my example above isn’t hyperbole. If you keep basics in place like topoff/ general salinity control it is not possible to starve out a cycle unless we dry (desiccate) boil or freeze.
ReefRusty
Valuable Member
very much so, easy way to make money I guess then isn't it, but not a good business model/ practice. nun the less I'm here and will only be able to move forwards with this cycle. this cycle process has been completely different to my last tank. BUt still a learning curve and thanks to your experience and the countless threads that cover this situation has made it easier on myself and i'm sure for alot of other reefers. Bring on Tuesday! also on that adding fish slowly? as I need to transfer around 8 fish in total into the 120gal and a load of coral.
OP
OP
I also 1000% think the LFS is not doing it on purpose, they legit have never been told that reef tanks set the standard we use to benchmark the test kit, it's always been the other way around for thirty years: the test kit sets the benchmark for the reef. if possible, post this exact page from the thread onto their facebook page. Not knowing isn't an excuse once they get the link, quit using that meter for cycle measure becomes the new rule, for them lol.
Brad Jones
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Really interesting never thought of the natural contamination feeding the tank.. appreciate the reply.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "double command and control" within the ten days. to be clear I dosed 66 drops which should have raised ammonia to 2ppm on Day 1... then repeated on day 3 which resulted in a 3.0ppm reading on day 4. The tank never would have reached 8ppm NO.
But yes I was almost immediately seeing NO being processed. Cheers!!! Tank is now at 78'F and 35ppt and will be keeping lights off until I return and do the 99% water change followed by some fish
OP
OP
Its the repeat, I'd never have any cycler dose even the agreed 1st round much less that again twice over, within ten days. It overpowers most test kits, or testers (they prepare a range of ways before reporting subjective numbers, sometimes within directions and shake/wait times and sometimes without those rules)
I need to go back to post #1 and add that advice, do not dose a reef to 2 ppm ammonia to cycle it, that's orders beyond what you're expecting as an initial fish load and well beyond the balance reporting abilities of most cheap test kits. the wait time we use which matches a cycling chart (for ammonia control) makes up for the lack of huge dose.
its ideal for us to work with lesser degrees of ammonia and rely more on the time frame on most of the jobs we do here to set a clear action date.
pretty much this whole thread is handling the original doubt that the first drop ever occurred. On seneye it would, and per your way of wielding an api kit it does, but for most total anarchy begins here lol.
if everyone had seneye and they were tuned and benchmarked machines off running reefs, we could use high level initial dosing to watch a reliable drop in that time frame. But since most aren't on it, and we don't need that degree of ammonia to tune up for a few quick fish and corals, we like to start with lesser amounts here to avoid the whole blown test kit issue/ tbd as to why this happens on non seneye gear.
owners of the seneye report these initial quick drops consistently
owners of non digital color compare kits do not, that's the duality currently in play in tank cycling.
the truth in cycling runs consistently given the things we arrange: heated, circulating, high surface area catchment systems stocked with feed and dosed with dense filter bac in water. testing variance makes it seem very inconsistent tank to tank but its not, cycles occur on a very rigid timing basis (says cycling charts and reef convention sellers) despite the test kits
I need to go back to post #1 and add that advice, do not dose a reef to 2 ppm ammonia to cycle it, that's orders beyond what you're expecting as an initial fish load and well beyond the balance reporting abilities of most cheap test kits. the wait time we use which matches a cycling chart (for ammonia control) makes up for the lack of huge dose.
its ideal for us to work with lesser degrees of ammonia and rely more on the time frame on most of the jobs we do here to set a clear action date.
pretty much this whole thread is handling the original doubt that the first drop ever occurred. On seneye it would, and per your way of wielding an api kit it does, but for most total anarchy begins here lol.
if everyone had seneye and they were tuned and benchmarked machines off running reefs, we could use high level initial dosing to watch a reliable drop in that time frame. But since most aren't on it, and we don't need that degree of ammonia to tune up for a few quick fish and corals, we like to start with lesser amounts here to avoid the whole blown test kit issue/ tbd as to why this happens on non seneye gear.
owners of the seneye report these initial quick drops consistently
owners of non digital color compare kits do not, that's the duality currently in play in tank cycling.
the truth in cycling runs consistently given the things we arrange: heated, circulating, high surface area catchment systems stocked with feed and dosed with dense filter bac in water. testing variance makes it seem very inconsistent tank to tank but its not, cycles occur on a very rigid timing basis (says cycling charts and reef convention sellers) despite the test kits
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