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sixty_reefer
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[emoji23] so your outcome from this hole mess is that is cool to advice new hobbiest to keep there tank at “zero”... nice advice... can you show us 2 ICPs 3 or 6 months apart to back that out?
I Run the Most thriving SPS Tank on 0 P and 0 N
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[emoji23] so your outcome from this hole mess is that is cool to advice new hobbiest to keep there tank at “zero”... nice advice... can you show us 2 ICPs 3 or 6 months apart to back that out?
balajeek15
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When i started i read water need to in pristine condition to keep corals and with my lack of knowledge at that time I mis-interpreted and setup everything accordingly to run my tank clean as possible, lost lot of corals and further researching then found that too clean is not good at all, now i am trying to keep balance of N to 5 and P to 0.05. Hopefully one day my thank will thrive like those beautiful tank pictures i see here at R2R.
Darth.Daddy12
Active Member
I look for about the same on any tank.. I want 5ppm nitrates and around .1 phos as this way I know I have something but not elevated and not 0. Basically what I feel I can keep steady range and get consistent test result with. I would preferred lower pho’s but this is the area where I feel I get lowest measurements that I personally feel are accurate for my testing. I’ll get a Hanna ultra low soon enough.. but till then I won’t be trying to get any lower.
That said I feed like crazy and this is where the tank balances out and holds steady 24:7 which to me is much more important then being higher or lower..
I have an interesting theory on this that seems logical but never seen anyone research..
We know ultra low is where we typically see dyno issues... we know corals contain dyno to feedthemselves.. so is stressing a coral to where it expells them the actual cause for when we have dyno in a tank? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Fowler system with dyno. granted most of those are far from 0-0 but something that I wonder while laying in bed at night. Higher nutrient but still low nutrient systems rarely get dyno. It’s obky those pushing the ultra low from what I’ve seen.
12gallonsofhex
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I cut it down to 7 hours from 10. How low can i go without killing the chaeto?
Pete_the_Puma
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I agree with most postings in this thread
I have had various tanks over the years (Since 2005) but never had had issues with having too low nutrients in my system until recent years.
My current tank runs barebottom and Triton method with a fuge full of Cheato. I used to feed like a madman and still would ALWAYS register 0 nitrates and 0.00 phosphates on my test kits. Corals were pale and generally not doing well. A smallish ALk bump (7.0 to 8.5) wiped out 90% of SPS about 2-3 months ago.
I have since switched to dosing nitrate and phospahte in the form of NeoNitro and Neophos. These are on a dosing pump. I dose 5ml of each daily, in 5 divided 1ml doses. My test kits still register only either 0 or 0.2 for nitrates and 0.00 to 0.02 for phosphates, probably depending on how early after a 1ml infusion I test. The point is I now know for sure there are very low levels of theses elements available for my corals almost around the clock. The corals sure look better with coloration and polyp extension.I have found that just a small trickle of each on a regular basis is probably better.
I have had various tanks over the years (Since 2005) but never had had issues with having too low nutrients in my system until recent years.
My current tank runs barebottom and Triton method with a fuge full of Cheato. I used to feed like a madman and still would ALWAYS register 0 nitrates and 0.00 phosphates on my test kits. Corals were pale and generally not doing well. A smallish ALk bump (7.0 to 8.5) wiped out 90% of SPS about 2-3 months ago.
I have since switched to dosing nitrate and phospahte in the form of NeoNitro and Neophos. These are on a dosing pump. I dose 5ml of each daily, in 5 divided 1ml doses. My test kits still register only either 0 or 0.2 for nitrates and 0.00 to 0.02 for phosphates, probably depending on how early after a 1ml infusion I test. The point is I now know for sure there are very low levels of theses elements available for my corals almost around the clock. The corals sure look better with coloration and polyp extension.I have found that just a small trickle of each on a regular basis is probably better.
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sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
Tank you all for sharing your experience with zero or nearly zero experiences with N and P hopefully you all will be helping new reefers acknowledge that pristine water in reefing has a different meaning. This thread Goal is not to discourage ULNS but if you do run one would be cool to share wend did you felt ready to handle the requirements to maintain one. If you done it from day one, hats down to you sir. You are on a different level from most of us. But if you claiming zero system please back it up with an ICP so that new reefers don’t get confused with the terms.
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In these discussions nitrates and phosphates tend to be put in the same bag but corals use both in different ways. Do corals need nitrates at all if they have ammonia available?
And then comes the mixing of what are the corals' needs and the tank's needs. Maybe the corals don't need nitrates, but many micro-organisms do?
And then comes the mixing of what are the corals' needs and the tank's needs. Maybe the corals don't need nitrates, but many micro-organisms do?
mfollen
Valuable Member
Thank you everyone. This has been a very helpful thread as I recently went through a crash related to low nutrients.
I’ve upped my feedings & fish count and now dose neophos & neonitro.
Question for carbon dosing. It’s my understanding that corals prefer phosphates from consuming bacteria that consume PO4 and not necessarily inorganic PO4... with this understanding, is carbon dosing recommended to convert PO4 to a more favorable form as bacteria for the coral?
Sorry! Didn’t want to get too technical. But had to ask as I essentially reset my system
I’ve upped my feedings & fish count and now dose neophos & neonitro.
Question for carbon dosing. It’s my understanding that corals prefer phosphates from consuming bacteria that consume PO4 and not necessarily inorganic PO4... with this understanding, is carbon dosing recommended to convert PO4 to a more favorable form as bacteria for the coral?
Sorry! Didn’t want to get too technical. But had to ask as I essentially reset my system
TheKingInYellow
Active Member
It's amazing how quickly attitudes change. Six or seven years ago if you wanted all SPS you had to have zeroes across the board. I think the current idea of heavy bioload, heavy feeding, heavy export probably is the best way of going. Your unlikely to have high levels of anything in the tank but always enough to supply demand for the moment.
Big skimmer, carbon, algae scrubber, lots of food, lots of fish = happy corals. I hope.
Big skimmer, carbon, algae scrubber, lots of food, lots of fish = happy corals. I hope.
I agree to a point. It's really about dissolved organic compounds. SPS corals get the carbon, nitrate, phosphate, and other nutrients primarily by using these compounds rather than using inorganic nutrients directly. Properly managed bioloads create the inorganic and organic nutrients needed. The art of reef keeping is balancing input, usage, and export as the system changes without over reacting and causing problems. My balancing skills are still questionable, but I'm getting there!
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sixty_reefer
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Not really understanding your question, do you want to reduce po4 using C and N? How familiar are you with the Redfield Ratio?
mfollen
Valuable Member
I’m familiar with the red field ratio. Curious to see if carbon dosing improves the availability of phosphates to coral from converting PO4 into the form of bacteria.
If coral prefer consuming bacteria more than straight PO4 for nutrient uptake?
Sorry I’m confused myself. Don’t want to complicate or confuse further.
If coral prefer consuming bacteria more than straight PO4 for nutrient uptake?
Sorry I’m confused myself. Don’t want to complicate or confuse further.
I have to take issue with something that keeps getting stated again and again in various places. "Pristine ocean water is very low in nutrients". I have argued for years that this is a misinterpretation of samples. In my opinion ocean water is filled with "nutrients" as it washes over a reef. The reef animals have developed to use every scrap of food present and therefore the water has very low "residual" nutrients. In other words it's like saying "hey all these animals are eating nothing". Everything in the ocean eats, expels waste and breeds. All of this is food for something else it just gets utilized so efficiently that it appears to be low nutrients in the water column. Kind of like testing for PO4 and getting zero while the tanks over run with algae. The best tanks I've ever seen are high import and high export. Not sure this is something a beginner should try but that's been my observation over the years. Think of a ZEO tank, they dump all kinds of potions in but they also take all nutrients out. Nothing is starving but they aren't leaving it in the water column forever. It's a constant race, food in , food out, leaving relatively clean water and healthy animals. JMO on the subject.
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sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
I’m familiar with the red field ratio. Curious to see if carbon dosing improves the availability of phosphates to coral from converting PO4 into the form of bacteria.
If coral prefer consuming bacteria more than straight PO4 for nutrient uptake?
Sorry I’m confused myself. Don’t want to complicate or confuse further.
Redfield is ultra complicated my knowledge of it is rusty, out of curiosity which ratio do you use?
Carbon dosing encourages bacteria to grow that use carbon, nitrate, and phosphate. These bacteria use these in varying ratios. Redfield is just a sampling of the overall biomass... think of it as an average.
I wasn't aware that those bacteria are a food source for SPS corals though. In addition, the P used by the bacteria is the inorganic form that I don't think is used directly by the SPS corals. I could be wrong... sure wouldn't be the first time!
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sixty_reefer
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I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. As you only thinking about the bacteria forgetting the bigger picture. The Redfield guideline for reefing according to triton is 1 : 11150 : 1250 : 147 phosphorus, inorganic carbon, organic carbon and nitrogen obviously this values will change in different tanks as different tanks got different needs and different coral consumption. 116:16:1 that we see going around is the Redfield ratio for phytoplankton, I truly believe that none of us is growing phytoplankton in our DT.
Jase4224
Well-Known Member
To answer your question.. corals need X amount of N/P to thrive. So you can provide two ways: food, or through the water.
So you can have 0’s as long as you still provide N/P through particulate food OR provide through keeping higher levels of N/P in the water itself if feeding so much isn’t an option.
For me, it’s not in my budget to feed a lot so I’ll adjust my filtration to keep some N/P in the water.
blstravler
2500 Club Member
I’m pretty sure you can have 0’s across the board and be very successful via feeding...
I was told many many years ago that it is harder to kill coral with high nutrients than with low nutrients. I feel that is great advice for anyone starting out but just my 2 pennies. A balance of in and out is the most important in reefing.
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