Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[buzz225]

Melafix*

 

[Paul B]

I also think Melafix would work on that

 

[buzz225]

Great I started the first dose last night will update progress

 

[hart24601]

Great write up, nice job!

I saw ich in my tank a few weeks ago, had to break out the diatom filter. It gives me slightly more peace of mind than UV, while they both are only good if they capture free swimming organisms, the UV I don't want to worry about enough dosage, the diatom filter just snags them up.

 

[Humblefish]

Great write up, nice job!

I saw ich in my tank a few weeks ago, had to break out the diatom filter. It gives me slightly more peace of mind than UV, while they both are only good if they capture free swimming organisms, the UV I don't want to worry about enough dosage, the diatom filter just snags them up.

Excellent suggestion about the diatom! It's been so long since I used one that I had forgotten how they can suck up the free swimmers, the same as using a UV. I will incorporate this into my article.

 

[Paulday]

I thought Ickes life cycle was 28 days. Y 72 for fallow tank

 

[Humblefish]

I thought Ickes life cycle was 28 days. Y 72 for fallow tank

In one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took up to 72 days for all the theronts to emerge from a group of tomonts. While this particular strain of ich is probably rare, it is best to always account for worst case scenario.

 

[sarker_smy]

very nice write up , enlightens many information...

 

[JasPR]

Ich eradication vs. Ich management​

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/189815-how-quarantine.html. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for at least 72 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fi...is/189658-treatment-options-my-two-cents.html

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for at least 72 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/190292-aerosol-transmission.html

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire. :wink:

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:

• Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
• Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
• Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
• Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
• No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.

A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.

very good review! Not preachy, no fluff, pure solid overview of a problem that drives more people out of the hobby in the first year or two than any other single factor. personally, I have 34 years experience in this hobby and I don't think I could add a thing to this overview. well done.

 

[Humblefish]

very good review! Not preachy, no fluff, pure solid overview of a problem that drives more people out of the hobby in the first year or two than any other single factor. personally, I have 34 years experience in this hobby and I don't think I could add a thing to this overview. well done.

Thank you. That was my goal. Just present both sides of the argument and let the reader decide for themselves.

 

[Paul B]

Great write up, nice job!

I saw ich in my tank a few weeks ago, had to break out the diatom filter. It gives me slightly more peace of mind than UV, while they both are only good if they capture free swimming organisms, the UV I don't want to worry about enough dosage, the diatom filter just snags them up.

I have 4 or 5 diatom filters in varying degrees of disassemble as they are not built very well and most of them are from the 70s. I rely on diatom filters for much of my tank maintenance and always for parasite removal. I often buy fish very cheap because they are covered in parasites and I cure them using copper and quinicrine hydrocloride and the diatom filter. It will remove anything as small, or smaller than a millimeter. I could not maintain my tank without a diatom filter.

 

[mcarroll]

Nice write up and I agree with most of it.[....]You did leave out one "con" to quarantining but I don't want to screw up your thread with my controversial theories.[....]
Fish Health Through Slime

I was going to say as much (and link the article), but I guess I still haven't learned my lesson on controversial theories. (-:<

Only weak fish get sick.

Fish get weak from external stresses of transport and living in too-small, over-crowed tanks and internally lose their ability to cope with stress and recover from it because they are malnourished. (More or less the same applies to humans, but the external stressors are a little different. )

Managing, eradicating, treating, quarantining, garlic and jumping through hoops won't do a thing to keep your fish healthy because you are not addressing the root of the problem.

Ich is not the problem. Garlic is not the solution. These are not the droids you are looking for.

A better guideline would be:

Keep fish healthy and don't put fish in a tank that's too small (and overcrowded) for their lifestyle.​

Once you have appropriate fish in your environment, PaulB has some great ideas on feeding (and overall care) that can break fish out of this fate...and he's not the only one (like blackworms, most of the ideas are not new, but they may be fairly unique in the reef setting, which tends to be very fad-based), but we need more people experimenting with and compounding those ideas!

 

[mcarroll]

Yes we do,
but for a different reason fish
shed slime.

Yes there are obvious apparent differences between fish and human "skin", but I am not convinced that the reason for them (raison d'être) is actually so different.

Humans are built differently cuz we're land critters....we need proof against sun exposure and dessication so our outside skin is built like it is.*

So instead, look at another part of our skin that's on the inside - the guts - which also shed cells continually, and the picture looks a LOT more similar. In fact as near as I can tell, it's dang-near identical from an immunity point of view.


* I think there's a good chance that our outside skin can and should be colonized by healthy microbes too, but THAT's a theory for another post.

 

[4FordFamily]

A healthy Acanthurus tang will not be able to manage ich as so many other fish can, 99/100. Your theory and experience holds some clout except with regards to most Acanthurus tangs.

 

[mcarroll]

A healthy Acanthurus tang will not be able to manage ich as so many other fish can, 99/100. Your theory and experience holds some clout except with regards to most Acanthurus tangs.

I'm not sure you can just say that about a whole genus of fish which manage just fine in the ocean...

Is this in your personal experience, or is there some element of their biology with respect to ich that's unique vs other fish?

What's more likely IME is that we take their needs into account less than other genuseseses....geni?....IANAScientist or Linguist!

Anyway, the fact is we know less about Tangs natural behavior than many other aquarium species, so our state of knowledge shouldn't be terribly surprising. They're easy to watch at a reef, but many are migratory - calling large stretches of reef home - so it's hard to observe any individual in the wild for an extended period. In that kind of scenario, without extended observation, you really can't say you know much. I think from the collectors all the way down to the hobbyists that The Reef Hobby needs to act a lot more conservatively with this genus than we do. Once there are captive bred Tangs (which I think will happen), everything will change.

I still guess they manage ich just as well as any fish.

The difference I think you see is that we're less good at providing healthy environments (including diet) for tangs than many other aquarium fish. Think about it: a six foot tank, 180 gallons or less, is about the best that a captive tang can hope for - and while some tangs adjust, many still have problems in this scenario. SOOOO many tangs go into 4' and 3' tanks and don't even have it that good.

I will admit I'm still curious if you think there's a different explanation or another contributor to the outcome!

* Last edit. Here's a theory for "your side"... I've heard, not read, that they have shortened guts vs most other fish - more of a "straight pipe" vs the maze that most have. Maybe they have less immune system because of this? I know of no evidence for this....just conjecturing.

 

[Humblefish]

A healthy Acanthurus tang will not be able to manage ich as so many other fish can, 99/100.

^^This is spot on. 99/100, because there are always going to be exceptions.

Also, a disease most fish cannot manage - even healthy specimens - is Amyloodinium ocellatum aka Marine Velvet Disease. Folks who choose to forgo QT and manage diseases instead run the risk of encountering this tank killer.

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm not sure you can just say that about a whole genus of fish which manage just fine in the ocean...

Is this in your personal experience, or is there some element of their biology with respect to ich that's unique vs other fish?

What's more likely IME is that we take their needs into account less than other genuseseses....geni?....IANAScientist or Linguist!

Anyway, the fact is we know less about Tangs natural behavior than many other aquarium species, so our state of knowledge shouldn't be terribly surprising. They're easy to watch at a reef, but many are migratory - calling large stretches of reef home - so it's hard to observe any individual in the wild for an extended period. In that kind of scenario, without extended observation, you really can't say you know much. I think from the collectors all the way down to the hobbyists that The Reef Hobby needs to act a lot more conservatively with this genus than we do. Once there are captive bred Tangs (which I think will happen), everything will change.

I still guess they manage ich just as well as any fish.

The difference I think you see is that we're less good at providing healthy environments (including diet) for tangs than many other aquarium fish. Think about it: a six foot tank, 180 gallons or less, is about the best that a captive tang can hope for - and while some tangs adjust, many still have problems in this scenario. SOOOO many tangs go into 4' and 3' tanks and don't even have it that good.

I will admit I'm still curious if you think there's a different explanation or another contributor to the outcome!

* Last edit. Here's a theory for "your side"... I've heard, not read, that they have shortened guts vs most other fish - more of a "straight pipe" vs the maze that most have. Maybe they have less immune system because of this? I know of no evidence for this....just conjecturing.

1) It is not a theory that Acanthurus tangs particularly powder blues, Browns, Achilles, and goldrim have significantly less slime coat to protect them than other tangs.

2) I have experience with ich management (mostly successful) over the last 12 years. Horrendous success with Acanthurus tangs, however. See my thread below, actually read it.

3) your logic that the fish can fight the parasite in an aquarium the same as they would in the ocean is flawed at best, with all due respect. In the ocean Acanthurus tangs swim miles and miles each day which means the parasites have a much more difficult time getting to them,

But MOST importantly, being enclosed in a small cage where the parasites can reproduce exponentially faster, is a vast difference. In the ocean, the number of parasites on the fish would not increase exponentially as they do in a small glass cage. The fish can build a resistance to it as the natural population increases very slowly and has far more difficulty reaching hosts.

4) to assume that even the most seasoned hobbyists provide an environment of low stress to this genus of tang (given their swimming needs), or really any fish for that matter (relative to the ocean) is preposterous.

I love this hobby but nothing I can do will be as stable or ideal as their natural environment that they evolved to inhabit. Period.

Here is the thread outlining my experience, that's all that it is. It's pretty astonishing though and you should read it. It will tell you that I didn't qt anything for a decade and relatively successfully managed ich except with regard to these fish.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ears-of-experience-and-ich-management.206347/

 

[4FordFamily]

I might add that since properly qt'ing and treating Acanthurus tangs I've had tremendous success. I have two Achilles, two powder blue, one goldrim, one powder brown, and a Sohal that are thriving.

 

[Paul B]

Tangs have a slightly different set of problems than say a gobi because they are schooling fish. Schooling fish are more like a colony of ants and don't have to think for themselves. They rely completely on their lateral line which automatically steers them to food, away from danger and everything else. They all work in unison like a flock of birds and in a tank by themselves, they are lost. Schooling fish such as most tangs have a more well designed lateral line system that lest them swim right next to another fish and never touch them. I assume they get signals continually from the glass walls in the tank which confuses them because they can't see the glass. But they can "feel" it. This is also why many pelagic sharks can't be kept in square tanks. This stresses them more than most fish which is also why they are very suseptable to HLLE which forms on their lateral line. Just my theories of course but I have been keeping and diving with them for over 40 years. I am going to publish an article this week on immunity that will be controversial. But I can always turn off my computer when everyone yells at me.

 

[Humblefish]

I am going to publish an article this week on immunity that will be controversial. But I can always turn off my computer when everyone yells at me.

Paul, I would love it if you would publish this information here as well - in the fish disease forum. I promise I won't yell.