ich in aquarium with immune fish

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by pboutin, May 20, 2017.

  1. pboutin

    pboutin Well-Known Member CTARS Member

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    This may seem like an odd question but will ich or marine velvet be able to survive in a system where the fish have become immune to these parasites? This might be a good question for @Paul B to chime in on.

    I had Ich in my tank and was unable to remove my fish so I opted to treat the tank with a "herbal remedy" I kept up treatment for 5 weeks as directed and in the end lost 3 of 11 fish in the system. Of the survivors my Yellow tang was the first to show signs and ended up with bubble eye due to a bacterial infection. Yet he is now doing quite well. It's been well over a month now that my tank seems to be free of ich... or is it? Can I risk the health of other fish by introducing them into this system?
     

  2. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Yes, Ich and velvet will survive in a system with immune fish. When a fish becomes immune it makes it more difficult for the parasite to feed. Since it can't feed properly, it won't grow to a visible size which is why many people assume it is gone. It also wont reproduce in nearly as high of numbers, but it will reproduce. Based on what I have seen, it would take around 4 years for Ich to die out on its own. Running a system like Paul B does wouldn't work if the Ich died out quickly. If not exposed to a parasite a fish will lose its immunity in about 6 months. To combat this, Paul B routinely goes out of his way to add new parasites to his system.

    Can you safely introduce new fish? That depends on your setup and the fish you chose. You can greatly improve the chance of new fish surviving if you run ozone or a UV filter set up to kill parasites. Some fish you get may either already be immune or able to acquire an immunity very quickly. Some individuals may have a permanently compromised immune system and will never develop an immunity.
     
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  3. miyags

    miyags Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget he uses diatom filters,which also remove parasites.
     
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  4. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    True, but he only uses it once or twice a year so it isn't done for parasite control.
     
  5. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Immune fish do not get sick because,,,well,,, they are immune. But immune fish won't stay immune unless, like Brew said, the fish are exposed to parasites, "and" you are feeding them correctly. Flakes, pellets and anything freeze dried is not IMO food and the fish will not stay immune. Food that does not have live bacteria in it is also not the proper food IMO to feed every day.
    I use my diatom filter maybe once a year and I don't think I used it in over a year and in that time have added quite a few fish and collected all sorts of stuff from the sea so the diatom is a non issue as far as parasites in my tank go.
    I am very sure there are some parasites in my tank, at least I hope so. I am sure they are sampling some slime from my fish until they realize my fishes slime has anti parasitic qualities that prevent the parasite from harming the fish itself. (here is where most people will come up with that silly playing Russian Roulette thing because I can't even speak Russian but did date Russian girl for a few years.)
    As you know I run my tank totally backwards from the vast majority of people on these forums but I also have no problems and never have to go on disease threads. This hobby is run on rumors and not even good rumors.
    If I were you, and I am probably not. I would be happy knowing some of my fish recovered from ich and are immune, but I would also feed, every day some meaty food such as clams or live worms that have live bacteria in it. Commercially available food is fine especially if it "doesn't" say "Irradiated to kill harmful parasites and bacteria" or something like that. We actually want those "harmful parasites and bacteria". So if you feed commercial food every day, I personally would supplement that with either a few live black worms, white worms, earth worms, Eartha Kit worms or clams that I would buy live and freeze myself. That should keep your fish immune forever and you should never have to go on that "Disease thread".
    Most people try very hard to keep parasites out of their tanks. To me, that is totally wrong. Fish evolved with parasites and are fine with them. The parasites make the fish much stronger. You don't want Sissy Mary fish that get sick at the drop of a hat or Oldsmobile tire. You want robust, immune, real Man fish. Unless of course they are girls. Then you want Supermodel fish. :rolleyes:

    PS I also would not put any herbal remedy in my tank. I also would not put tree stump remover, prozapro, copper, bio pellets, GAC, hydrogen peroxide, Kick Ick, Rawaphos or any thing besides seawater, calcium and alk.
     
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  6. pboutin

    pboutin Well-Known Member CTARS Member

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    How do you feed your vegetarians @Paul B ?
     
  7. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    Just to add to what @Brew12 has already said, "immunity" isn't a blanket statement sorta thing. Just because a fish develops natural immunity to one particular parasite (ex. ich) doesn't also mean the fish is automatically immune to other diseases: parasites (velvet, brook, uronema, etc.), worms, bacterial infections, etc. The immune system must deal with each of those separately, and will either overcome or succumb.
     
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  8. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    They get nori and if I can get it, fresh seaweed but no matter what they get to eat, they also get live worms or clams. Almost any fish will eat worms and the worms have the live bacteria in them that fish need for their immune system.

    Hello there my good friend Humble. :) You are correct. Fish get immune from the things that are trying to infect them that's why we need to expose fish to everything just like they are in the sea.
    But a fishes immune system is very different than ours and it can also fight some pathogens that are not exactly the same ones that infected them before. The bacteria in live food will also be varied bacteria and hopefully will be enough to protect the fish. It seems to work in my tank as my fish have not had a bacteria infection, ich, velvet, brook, uronema, worms, mononucleosis, plague, the heart break of psoriasis or anything else in decades. :rolleyes:
     
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  9. 94Roarge

    94Roarge Well-Known Member

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    So much great stuff to learn! Awesome guys!
     
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  10. WeaveAway

    WeaveAway Member

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    Hey guys, love the idea of building the immune system rather than trying to irradicate the parasites. I'm dealing with another round of ich, apparently my 2 blue damsels and 1 six-lined wrasse are immune but carry it. After waiting almost 3 months, I bought a beautiful banner fish that now has it. I'm sick. I've read so much that my head is spinning and ready to dump the whole thing. I am new at this, going on 6 months and I'm beginning to feel this is just way over my head (and budget). Help..
     
  11. pboutin

    pboutin Well-Known Member CTARS Member

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    Ahh seems you are a step ahead of me @WeaveAway I'll let the more experienced in this arena answer that question. If going for an Immune fish tatic how do you treat new additions to the system that are not yet immune?
     
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    The thing that makes it difficult is that there are two very different, non compatible ways to run a tank. For Noobs or people without too much experience a quarantined tank may be easier but of course more time consuming and more expensive. As you get better and can recognize a healthy fish from a fish that is in a bad mood or a fish without a healthy immune system. It is hard and takes time.
    For a quarantined tank you need the tank and possibly some medications because quarantined fish come down with all sorts of things in the beginning. Don't believe me, just pick any forum and go on the disease threads.
    But that may be easier than trying to get fish immune.
    Our fish come immune already from the sea . It's our job to strengthen that immunity by allowing the fish to naturally be exposed to whatever they are used to being exposed to and feeding them correctly. I think that's where most people falter. Flakes and pellets won't do it and if that is what you want to feed, keep quarantining because your fish will never be healthy enough to thrive in a natural tank with natural pathogens.
    Fish need live bacteria at almost every meal. Live food is the best. I have about 22 fish and along with clams, Mysis and some commercial frozen food, my fish get a few live worms every day. They don't need many, maybe one worm a fish but I want the bacteria in the fish. That is the key. My small fish get new born brine shrimp every day. It takes me probably 3 minutes to hatch shrimp every day.

    Yesterday I added two fish to my tank. A queen anthias and a flasher wrasse. I acclimated them for 15 or 20 minutes and threw them in my tank. They are swimming around, eating, dancing and texting and I know they, and all my fish will be fine because they are immune. If my fish have not gotten sick in 40 years, I have no reason to think they will get sick now.
    In a couple of weeks those new fish will grow longer tails and bright iridescent scales. If they have a mate, they will fill with eggs as all my fish do and they will probably live out their normal life span, or jump out.
    Healthy, immune fish stay that way and "never" get sick.

    I read all these posts about people adding fish then they have to add copper, prizapro, coax it to eat, and all sorts of things that is not normal.
    Those things don't happen in a natural tank with natural bacteria. The always eat and after a day or so, they are out having fun.
    The Queen anthias I got yesterday was out and eating with in an hour.
    Here they are eating some new born brine shrimp.

     
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  13. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    How do you get the shrimp to hatch so fast? Crank up the heat?
     
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    I have a batch started the day before so they are hatching for a day and a half so I always have new born shrimp
     
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