Ich Management Protocol

[KyleC]

Hi All,

Thought maybe I'd find an 'Ich Management Protocol' thread but I can't see any.

Background: I had ich when I first got my tank (already established a year, from previous owner). It came with a bad dose of ich and quickly killed the puffer before I had a chance to do anything. I went fallow for 76 days, but stupidly added coral during that time and when I readded fish, ich reappeared.

Since then I've increased feedings and the Royal Gramma has shown less and less spots of ich, hardly any at all now (been weeks). I then added a Regal Tang and of course, it has ich now.

I'm feeding frozen brine (with added garlic and spirulina), mysis (with added garlic and spirulina), frozen fish eggs, and pellets.

I want to try ich management so I've recently started dosing H202 as per humblefish's guidance.

What are other steps I take? I can't go fallow again as I don't have a QT tank big enough for the small tang, royal gramma, 2 clowns and cardinal fish (I only have a 60 litre QT).

Does UV work to help reduce free swimmers? If so, what size for an aquaone aquareef 300? How often should it be on, and does it have to be hard plumped into the tank?

Also, what other foods/vitamins might help? I'm ordering some nori for the tang this week too.

Depending on the responses to this thread, I'll update this post with a summary of ich management steps.

Thanks.

1) Humblefish's HH202 dosing (experimental, use with caution)
2) Soak frozen/freeze dried foods in selcon (once a week)

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

@Paul B

 

[PocketGoose]

As far as food/vitamins I really like the food soaks selcon and vitamarin-M by brightwell. I don't use it every feeding but at least once a week.

 

[KyleC]

As far as food/vitamins I really like the food soaks selcon and vitamarin-M by brightwell. I don't use it every feeding but at least once a week.

I've heard people soaking food in garlic and selcon, I never realised you could get food already 'soaked' in selcon, thanks! Must check it out. Do you practice ich management also?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I've heard people soaking food in garlic and selcon, I never realised you could get food already 'soaked' in selcon, thanks! Must check it out. Do you practice ich management also?

I think you mis-read his post. Selcon is a "food soak". You still need to combine it with the food.

 

[KyleC]

I think you mis-read his post. Selcon is a "food soak". You still need to combine it with the food.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I need to read up on selcon.

 

[KyleC]

From BRS site

"Selcon is a vitamin supplement for marine fish and invertebrates. Use to help maintain a healthy reef system, increase disease resistance and bost nutritional intake for breeding fish. Combine with freeze-dried or frozen foods or feed to brine shrimp to enhance the nutritional value"

As I feed primarily frozen, I can add some in that case... although, I wonder how much of it will actually soak into the thawed frozen brine? Maybe freeze-dried brine might absorb more?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

From BRS site

"Selcon is a vitamin supplement for marine fish and invertebrates. Use to help maintain a healthy reef system, increase disease resistance and bost nutritional intake for breeding fish. Combine with freeze-dried or frozen foods or feed to brine shrimp to enhance the nutritional value"

As I feed primarily frozen, I can add some in that case... although, I wonder how much of it will actually soak into the thawed frozen brine? Maybe freeze dries brine might absorb more? Thoughts?

It's kind of a crap shoot guessing how much actually stays on any of the food, but soaking pellets seems to be the most efficient.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi All,

Thought maybe I'd find an 'Ich Management Protocol' thread but I can't see any.

Background: I had ich when I first got my tank (already established a year, from previous owner). It came with a bad dose of ich and quickly killed the puffer before I had a chance to do anything. I went fallow for 76 days, but stupidly added coral during that time and when I readded fish, ich reappeared.

Since then I've increased feedings and the Royal Gramma has shown less and less spots of ich, hardly any at all now (been weeks). I then added a Regal Tang and of course, it has ich now.

I'm feeding frozen brine (with added garlic and spirulina), mysis (with added garlic and spirulina), frozen fish eggs, and pellets.

I want to try ich management so I've recently started dosing H202 as per humblefish's guidance.

What are other steps I take? I can't go fallow again as I don't have a QT tank big enough for the small tang, royal gramma, 2 clowns and cardinal fish (I only have a 60 litre QT).

Does UV work to help reduce free swimmers? If so, what size for an aquaone aquareef 300? How often should it be on, and does it have to be hard plumped into the tank?

Also, what other foods/vitamins might help? I'm ordering some nori for the tang this week too.

Depending on the responses to this thread, I'll update this post with a summary of ich management steps.

Thanks.

1) Humblefish's HH202 dosing (experimental, use with caution)
2) Soak frozen/freeze dried foods in selcon (once a week)

Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

 

[KyleC]

Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

Thanks Jay!

Hopefully for my tang I still have time, as today I'd say it has around 10-15 spots at most. If I notice it getting worse, I can setup my QT tank and treat it on It's own as I have coppersafe to hand.

1) Can you give anymore info on using UV? My tank is around 300 litres. I think I read somewhere you want 1W per 5 gallons, so I'd need around 25W. Can you get UVs with their own pump? So as not to have to hard plumb them?

3) is there any reasoning behind this temp? I've mine set to 24.5-25°C (76.1-77°F). Can easily up to 78 but would higher temperatures not accelerate disease progression?

4) I have a sandsifting starfish, I'd be worried siphoning the sandbed would reduce microfauna and negatively impact the starfish.

5) Currently using 5 micron filter socks changed every 3-4 days plus a skimmer... would this suffice?

6) I know H202 is controversial, but I feel I'd rather use this over the reef safe meds... as when I tried them previously, my corals closed pretty fast even though I stuck to the guidelines closely.

 

[KyleC]

It's kind of a crap shoot guessing how much actually stays on any of the food, but soaking pellets seems to be the most efficient.

Makes sense, pellets it is then! Thanks!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks Jay!

Hopefully for my tang I still have time, as today I'd say it has around 10-15 spots at most. If I notice it getting worse, I can setup my QT tank and treat it on It's own as I have coppersafe to hand.

1) Can you give anymore info on using UV? My tank is around 300 litres. I think I read somewhere you want 1W per 5 gallons, so I'd need around 25W. Can you get UVs with their own pump? So as not to have to hard plumb them?

3) is there any reasoning behind this temp? I've mine set to 24.5-25°C (76.1-77°F). Can easily up to 78 but would higher temperatures not accelerate disease progression?

4) I have a sandsifting starfish, I'd be worried siphoning the sandbed would reduce microfauna and negatively impact the starfish.

5) Currently using 5 micron filter socks changed every 3-4 days plus a skimmer... would this suffice?

6) I know H202 is controversial, but I feel I'd rather use this over the reef safe meds... as when I tried them previously, my corals closed pretty fast even though I stuck to the guidelines closely.

UV is good when used with proper flow rate but also its a core belief that UV will erase parasites and bacterial algae from tank when in essence addresses what is free floating and passes through the uv channel. It will however help reduce the reproduction.
Regarding Peroxide.... Peroxide is an antiseptic which in marine setting acts as an oxidizer and is mainly water. We're finding many resorting to using peroxide which is a short cut and appears easier than conventional quarantine method with little result/ effectiveness. When used with a UV - the UV unit actually breaks down peroxide quickly

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B

I think I will stay far away from this thread. Just to much I disagree with so I don't want to confuse the original poster.

 

[Uncle99]

Thanks Jay!

Hopefully for my tang I still have time, as today I'd say it has around 10-15 spots at most. If I notice it getting worse, I can setup my QT tank and treat it on It's own as I have coppersafe to hand.

1) Can you give anymore info on using UV? My tank is around 300 litres. I think I read somewhere you want 1W per 5 gallons, so I'd need around 25W. Can you get UVs with their own pump? So as not to have to hard plumb them?

3) is there any reasoning behind this temp? I've mine set to 24.5-25°C (76.1-77°F). Can easily up to 78 but would higher temperatures not accelerate disease progression?

4) I have a sandsifting starfish, I'd be worried siphoning the sandbed would reduce microfauna and negatively impact the starfish.

5) Currently using 5 micron filter socks changed every 3-4 days plus a skimmer... would this suffice?

6) I know H202 is controversial, but I feel I'd rather use this over the reef safe meds... as when I tried them previously, my corals closed pretty fast even though I stuck to the guidelines closely.

Careful with number 6, you can overdose and that will be unfortunate to your corals.

I practice Ick management about 6 months ago now, on a very seasoned 6” blue that I had for about 5 years now. He a nine other fish share a 180g.

About 8 months ago, He showed up out of blue with about 15 spots. No way I could get the fish out without major coral damage, so, no choice, it was either correct itself, or my fish were going to die. Sad, but unfortunately best choice for me.

I did add a HOB UV (green machine). I blocked his cave with rock so he could not sleep in this spot, he lies right down in this cave. Other than that, no other changes.

About 4 days ish after I first seen spots, there was less. But then a day later maybe a bit more, then about 7 ish, less than the first.

Over a month and down to zero.

No one else ever got infected.

It’s been a further 4 ish months now and no spots.

Have no idea why after years, it just magically appeared.

Oh bless the fish gods….

 

[Uncle99]

I think I will stay far away from this thread. Just to much I disagree with so I don't want to confuse the original poster.

Gee, I would love to hear what you have to say!

 

[KyleC]

UV is good when used with proper flow rate but also its a core belief that UV will erase parasites and bacterial algae from tank when in essence addresses what is free floating and passes through the uv channel. It will however help reduce the reproduction.
Regarding Peroxide.... Peroxide is an antiseptic which in marine setting acts as an oxidizer and is mainly water. We're finding many resorting to using peroxide which is a short cut and appears easier than conventional quarantine method with little result/ effectiveness. When used with a UV - the UV unit actually breaks down peroxide quickly

I have read that a few times now. So it's one or the other basically.

Personally I'd much rather QT my fish, I'm not looking for a shortcut. It's just not possible for me at present to QT all fish, unless anyone thinks a 60 litre tank can hold 2 clowns, small blue tang, cardinal and a royal gramma? In which case I will.

 

[KyleC]

I think I will stay far away from this thread. Just to much I disagree with so I don't want to confuse the original poster.

Happy for everyone's input Paul, just trying to gauge the best approach for my current situation. I understand the methods I've proposed are controversial and I accept the ideal way forward would be either QT with copper, hyposalinity, or TTM.

 

[Paul B]

What people call "Ich Management" I call immunity. Only very healthy fish can be immune. Using copper or any other chemical means to kill parasites goes totally against "my" Immunity theories.

You can read my thoughts on it here:

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[KyleC]

Careful with number 6, you can overdose and that will be unfortunate to your corals.

I practice Ick management about 6 months ago now, on a very seasoned 6” blue that I had for about 5 years now. He a nine other fish share a 180g.

About 8 months ago, He showed up out of blue with about 15 spots. No way I could get the fish out without major coral damage, so, no choice, it was either correct itself, or my fish were going to die. Sad, but unfortunately best choice for me.

I did add a HOB UV (green machine). I blocked his cave with rock so he could not sleep in this spot, he lies right down in this cave. Other than that, no other changes.

About 4 days ish after I first seen spots, there was less. But then a day later maybe a bit more, then about 7 ish, less than the first.

Over a month and down to zero.

No one else ever got infected.

It’s been a further 4 ish months now and no spots.

Have no idea why after years, it just magically appeared.

Oh bless the fish gods….

I'm keeping a very close eye. I'd previously dosed H202 for 2 weeks for the royal gramma when he first showed spots, now he has none... maybe 1 spot every few days if at all.

That's my only concern here, the blue tang is quite young, and so I imagine it's immunity is not as strong or developed as yours. Hoping I can manage his condition to get him to where the Royal gramma is now... ideally down the line when possible I will absolutely QT all fish and go fallow. Must look into the green machine you mention, seems more practical than plumbing a UV in. Thanks!

 

[KyleC]

What people call "Ich Management" I call immunity. Only very healthy fish can be immune. Using copper or any other chemical means to kill parasites goes totally against "my" Immunity theories.

You can read my thoughts on it here:

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

Fascinating read Paul! Refreshing to see a more natural approach. Reminds me of my approach to gardening, I hate pesticides and the likes so always go for biological control methods and natural fertilisers etc as nature intended.

This has given me some serious food for thought, not something I'd of expected to read tbh but very glad I did!

I'm curious about adding some mud from local seaside, makes sense this will add beneficial bacteria. I live in Northern Ireland, I wonder if the bacteria here would be as beneficial? Or if we may have parasites/pathogens my fish may not be exposed to in their natural habitat?

One things for sure, I'm going to look into feeding more fish/clams etc as you'd mentioned, as well as consider setting up my own worm farm as you have done.