Ich or something worse

Neilie

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New yellow tang my son brought it home for me for Father’s Day. Noticed these dots on his body just today. Wondering if it’s ich or something else. Eats well and swims fine, so far. Hope the pictures shows them enough to diagnose. 🤦🏼‍♂️
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I recently went through hypo to treat ich. I was lucky that my tank didn't have much coral in it so I did it in the main tank with the 11 fish.
It would seem very challenging to keep a small tank worth such a large amount of fish alive for the process.

I'll say this: initially I chose to try a management strategy - I bought a 50w uv, fed heavy, etc. One of my blue tangs with started turning for the worse and it would seem he was a few days away from bring overcome and killed. I activated the hypo protocol, which takes a few days to pull down to the level you need to destroy ich. However it didn't take as long to start suppressing it and he recovered quickly enough.
I guess my point is - try management if you like, but be ready to go into treatment as soon as they start taking a turn.
 
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I recently went through hypo to treat ich. I was lucky that my tank didn't have much coral in it so I did it in the main tank with the 11 fish.
It would seem very challenging to keep a small tank worth such a large amount of fish alive for the process.

I'll say this: initially I chose to try a management strategy - I bought a 50w uv, fed heavy, etc. One of my blue tangs with started turning for the worse and it would seem he was a few days away from bring overcome and killed. I activated the hypo protocol, which takes a few days to pull down to the level you need to destroy ich. However it didn't take as long to start suppressing it and he recovered quickly enough.
I guess my point is - try management if you like, but be ready to go into treatment as soon as they start taking a turn.
He eats nori like crazy I soak it in selcon and he eats frozen food with spirulina well also, I put the UV on 24-7 I’m keeping a close eye and I think I would like to try lowering the salinity slowly to see the reaction to the tank. He seems clearer than the day I took the picture. Thanks all the input has been very helpful. I think I would stress the whole tank out by removing rock and coral to get all the fish into quarantine, I think that would stress the rest of the fish more. I never had a good outcome with copper treatment when ever I tried. I guess if I have to do that I will.
 
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Just tried to get another picture before the lights went on, spots kind of look dark today. His fins are also clear some one mentioned the saw spots on his fins in one of the other pictures but I never saw his fins with spots yet. Still ich you think
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looks like Black Ich. A type of worm. Treatment would be Praziquantel or A FW Dip for Temporary relief. If regular Marine Ich it would be all over his Fins also. Let's see what Jay has to say


@Jay Hemdal
 
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Just tried to get another picture before the lights went on, spots kind of look dark today. His fins are also clear some one mentioned the saw spots on his fins in one of the other pictures but I never saw his fins with spots yet. Still ich you think
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While black spots on a yellow tang are almost always "black ich", a turbellarian worm, the original photos that you posted are NOT that disease. So - why the black spots now? Tough to say. It could be that the fish is producing melanin as a reaction to the original ich infection, or it could also have both diseases at the same time.

Here is some text that I wrote about the tang turbellarian:

Turbellarian​

Turbellarians are a group of worms related to trematodes. They often go undiagnosed as a cause of active infections in fishes except for one group: Paravortex sp.

Cause and symptoms
Since this disease is often seen in newly acquired fish, the suspicion is that the fish bring the disease with them and become infected due to the transport stress they endure.

This parasite causes very distinctive black spots on some species of fish, most notably tangs and surgeonfish. Other fish that may become infected with Paravortex include butterflyfishes, angelfishes, gobies, and jawfishes.

The worm encysts under the fish’s skin, and the fish deposits black melanin pigment as a reaction to the infection. Since these spots are so apparent to even the casual observer, this disease is easily diagnosed, even by beginning aquarists.

Often self-limiting

The problem is that this sometimes causes the aquarist to overreact and begin a treatment that actually might be more harmful than the disease itself. It turns out that many cases of Paravortex infections are self-limiting; unless tank conditions are very poor, the worms often die out and the infection goes away on its own.



Only if the spots increase greatly in number (more than 20 spots on a fish) or the fish begin showing other signs of ill health should treatment be undertaken.

Cleanliness counts
Some aquarists have reported that careful siphon-cleaning of the aquarium substrate and improving overall cleanliness in the aquarium helps to reduce this infection. It is possible that Paravortex has a non-parasitic, free-living form at one stage of its life cycle and that careful cleaning will remove the parasite at that point.

Some turbellarians are tougher to diagnosis
There are other turbellarians that do not cause melanistic skin changes in fish and are much more difficult to diagnose. Ichthyophaga is a type known to infect fishes and can cause significant fish loss in crowded conditions. Diagnosis of this parasite generally requires a skin scrape.

Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2.2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for trematode worms, but despite being “prescribed” by many people, it is not very effective for turbellarians. Praziquantel doesn’t kill worms, it just causes them to relax their grip and let go of the fish. These turbellarians are beneath the skin, so do not drop off easily when exposed to praziquantel.

A freshwater dip. for five to seven minutes, followed by moving the affected fish to a non-infected tank is moderately effective at treating encysted turbellarians. The process may need to be repeated a total of three times, every five days.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 to 20 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.
 
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While black spots on a yellow tang are almost always "black ich", a turbellarian worm, the original photos that you posted are NOT that disease. So - why the black spots now? Tough to say. It could be that the fish is producing melanin as a reaction to the original ich infection, or it could also have both diseases at the same time.

Here is some text that I wrote about the tang turbellarian:

Turbellarian​

Turbellarians are a group of worms related to trematodes. They often go undiagnosed as a cause of active infections in fishes except for one group: Paravortex sp.

Cause and symptoms
Since this disease is often seen in newly acquired fish, the suspicion is that the fish bring the disease with them and become infected due to the transport stress they endure.

This parasite causes very distinctive black spots on some species of fish, most notably tangs and surgeonfish. Other fish that may become infected with Paravortex include butterflyfishes, angelfishes, gobies, and jawfishes.

The worm encysts under the fish’s skin, and the fish deposits black melanin pigment as a reaction to the infection. Since these spots are so apparent to even the casual observer, this disease is easily diagnosed, even by beginning aquarists.

Often self-limiting

The problem is that this sometimes causes the aquarist to overreact and begin a treatment that actually might be more harmful than the disease itself. It turns out that many cases of Paravortex infections are self-limiting; unless tank conditions are very poor, the worms often die out and the infection goes away on its own.



Only if the spots increase greatly in number (more than 20 spots on a fish) or the fish begin showing other signs of ill health should treatment be undertaken.

Cleanliness counts
Some aquarists have reported that careful siphon-cleaning of the aquarium substrate and improving overall cleanliness in the aquarium helps to reduce this infection. It is possible that Paravortex has a non-parasitic, free-living form at one stage of its life cycle and that careful cleaning will remove the parasite at that point.

Some turbellarians are tougher to diagnosis
There are other turbellarians that do not cause melanistic skin changes in fish and are much more difficult to diagnose. Ichthyophaga is a type known to infect fishes and can cause significant fish loss in crowded conditions. Diagnosis of this parasite generally requires a skin scrape.

Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2.2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for trematode worms, but despite being “prescribed” by many people, it is not very effective for turbellarians. Praziquantel doesn’t kill worms, it just causes them to relax their grip and let go of the fish. These turbellarians are beneath the skin, so do not drop off easily when exposed to praziquantel.

A freshwater dip. for five to seven minutes, followed by moving the affected fish to a non-infected tank is moderately effective at treating encysted turbellarians. The process may need to be repeated a total of three times, every five days.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 to 20 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.
Thanks Jay, you think I should still drop the salinity slowly or that would have no effect? Just fed the tank and the spots looks a lot better than this morning. Would there be something I could add to the food that could help?
 
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Ok here an idea - since you dont Qt your inverts and fishes. Its absolutely waste of time if you want to catch all your fishes and QT them. Try to go the ich management plan.
1. UV
2. Feed nori and garlic food
3. Metroplex and focus mixed with pallet and fed for at least 14 days. ( i have good outcome with this)

Also check on aggression in tank as stress can cause outbreaks.
 
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Thanks Jay, you think I should still drop the salinity slowly or that would have no effect? Just fed the tank and the spots looks a lot better than this morning. Would there be something I could add to the food that could help?

When you say the spots look better, do you mean there are fewer of them, or are they smaller?

Ich spots will come and go at first, while turbellarian worm stay in the same location on a fish for longer.

Oral medications are very difficult to dose properly, and do not work well for external skin infections.
 
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When you say the spots look better, do you mean there are fewer of them, or are they smaller?

Ich spots will come and go at first, while turbellarian worm stay in the same location on a fish for longer.

Oral medications are very difficult to dose properly, and do not work well for external skin infections.
A lot less black spots and very few white spots, he looked pretty clear last night. I’m going to continue to soak nori with selcon and keep an eye on it. I know it could come back aggressively. He does have a good appetite.
 
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Ok here an idea - since you dont Qt your inverts and fishes. Its absolutely waste of time if you want to catch all your fishes and QT them. Try to go the ich management plan.
1. UV
2. Feed nori and garlic food
3. Metroplex and focus mixed with pallet and fed for at least 14 days. ( i have good outcome with this)

Also check on aggression in tank as stress can cause outbreaks.
Thanks I’ll look into the method you use. I have the same fish for years, some have been in there since the start. Happy and healthy, I also have a bubble coral in there for years that over grew and is covering the rock I glued it to. I just added the yellow tang that came from being quarantine at the store. Also he became the “BOSS” I’d say. No one is messing with it.
 
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Spots both white and black all gone tonight. Hopefully they don’t come back full force. None of the other fish have any signs of spots
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So update I was able to grab him without tearing up the tank, I went to the tank in the pitch dark with a bright flash light. It was actually pretty easy. So I think he had something wrong with his stomach that was stressing him out, because it was always pinched I treated him in the DT with MetroPlex and focus in the food with garlic for a week. Pinched belly got better. After not having black spots for about 4 days they came back so I got him out and he’s in quarantine with PraziPro. Put him in on the 20th spots came off again the next day and has been clear since then. Eats well and eats nori in quarantine so hopefully it keeps up. Plan on doing another dose of PraziPro after 5 days. Should I do a water change before the second dose? Ammonia is not showing on a API test kit yet. Running a power head with filter floss on the intake. He seems comfortable.
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So update I was able to grab him without tearing up the tank, I went to the tank in the pitch dark with a bright flash light. It was actually pretty easy. So I think he had something wrong with his stomach that was stressing him out, because it was always pinched I treated him in the DT with MetroPlex and focus in the food with garlic for a week. Pinched belly got better. After not having black spots for about 4 days they came back so I got him out and he’s in quarantine with PraziPro. Put him in on the 20th spots came off again the next day and has been clear since then. Eats well and eats nori in quarantine so hopefully it keeps up. Plan on doing another dose of PraziPro after 5 days. Should I do a water change before the second dose? Ammonia is not showing on a API test kit yet. Running a power head with filter floss on the intake. He seems comfortable.
IMG_8648.jpeg

It’s generally a good idea to do a 25% water change between doses of Prazipro due to the solvent used.
 
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Nice job he looks healthy! Seems like you put a lot of work into treating him.

Curious, how’s the other fish in the tank? Any sign of ich or other issues?
 
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No issues so far with any of the other fish. Purple tang is about 5years old and fine Australian stripy is fine, 2 cardinal and 2year old mandarin. Fingers crossed.🤞🏻
 
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