Ich still present after 80 days fallow...

[Medmondsii]

Hello all,

I have a 280 gal DT with a 60 gal sump. I have a velvet outbreak lost some fish. I have setup a QT's purchase new fish and qt them with 30 days copper and prazi treatment. The DT was fallow for 89 days. So i assumed that the parasite have died/starve due to no fish being present. The new fish that were QT are

2 achillies tang
1 hippo tang
1 mimic tang
1 fox face
1 bi colored chromis
1 exquisite fire fish
1 blue azure
2 lyretail 1male 1 female

the fox face is the only fish that survived my velvet outbreak all other fish are new and never been in the DT. I got them from the fish store and put directly into qT. As mentioned all fish were copper and prazi for over 30 days and now white spots (that i could see) were on the fish.

Now after the QT process was finished and fallow period was completed. I put the fish into DT and after about a 1 week - 2 weeks. The achillie tang start to show ich on him.

I was shocked. I purchase a hugh uv sterilizer an aquauv 120 watt. @ 1360 gph would give me 90k ok killing power. But i believe my water flow is too slow and im am unable to get ahead of this outbreak. Every morning it seem they are looking worst even with the UV on 24/7 and big water changes 200 gal/week.

I have also trying Polyp Lab Reef Safe Medic currently at 3 triple dose. But it doesn't seem to be working.

Im also getting a more powerful pump to increasing flow through the uv.

But im thinking that im gonna have to start taking all the fish out again and QT.


Do anyone have any other methods that would help?

I see post all the time of people trying different stuff and saying that they have had success. But so far i have had no success even with QT. I hate to start fallow all over again. But it looks like this is what im gonna have to do.

I will post some pics later on so everyone can see how bad the ich is. Seem like the achillies tang are taking the brunt of it.

 

[Timfish]

I would slow the flow rate down in the UV to just around 2 turnovers an hour, ~600 gph. Kill rate and flow rate work against each other so the faster the flow the lower the kill rate. For marine "ick" the needed dose of UVC is pretty high and I the stuff I've read it's much higher than for fresh water "ich". I'm assuming when you said your DT was fallow you took the foxface out and put it in the QT and treated with the other fish? The cysts can be transferred on any hard surface, have you added anything else to your DT that wasn't QTed?

 

[MrPike]

Check out hydrogen peroxide dosing thread over at humblefish. Some interesting results, and I think the peroxide becomes more effective with UV.

 

[MrPike]

Also another thought, any new snails/coral introduced that may have brought in the parasite after the fallow?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello all,

I have a 280 gal DT with a 60 gal sump. I have a velvet outbreak lost some fish. I have setup a QT's purchase new fish and qt them with 30 days copper and prazi treatment. The DT was fallow for 89 days. So i assumed that the parasite have died/starve due to no fish being present. The new fish that were QT are

2 achillies tang
1 hippo tang
1 mimic tang
1 fox face
1 bi colored chromis
1 exquisite fire fish
1 blue azure
2 lyretail 1male 1 female

the fox face is the only fish that survived my velvet outbreak all other fish are new and never been in the DT. I got them from the fish store and put directly into qT. As mentioned all fish were copper and prazi for over 30 days and now white spots (that i could see) were on the fish.

Now after the QT process was finished and fallow period was completed. I put the fish into DT and after about a 1 week - 2 weeks. The achillie tang start to show ich on him.

I was shocked. I purchase a hugh uv sterilizer an aquauv 120 watt. @ 1360 gph would give me 90k ok killing power. But i believe my water flow is too slow and im am unable to get ahead of this outbreak. Every morning it seem they are looking worst even with the UV on 24/7 and big water changes 200 gal/week.

I have also trying Polyp Lab Reef Safe Medic currently at 3 triple dose. But it doesn't seem to be working.

Im also getting a more powerful pump to increasing flow through the uv.

But im thinking that im gonna have to start taking all the fish out again and QT.


Do anyone have any other methods that would help?

I see post all the time of people trying different stuff and saying that they have had success. But so far i have had no success even with QT. I hate to start fallow all over again. But it looks like this is what im gonna have to do.

I will post some pics later on so everyone can see how bad the ich is. Seem like the achillies tang are taking the brunt of it.

Sorry to hear.

There was no doubt, a biosecurity failure, but a properly done fallow period of that time frame wouldn’t be it. 75 days, under experimental conditions (low water quality, xeric culture) is the maximum time ever demonstrated.
Common biosecurity failures include leaving fish in a fallow tank or adding inverts from another system, contamination via wet items (nets, hands, etc.) A failed copper treatment could also be a cause, what copper product did you use and at what concentration?
Jay

 

[Medmondsii]

Sorry to hear.

There was no doubt, a biosecurity failure, but a properly done fallow period of that time frame wouldn’t be it. 75 days, under experimental conditions (low water quality, xeric culture) is the maximum time ever demonstrated.
Common biosecurity failures include leaving fish in a fallow tank or adding inverts from another system, contamination via wet items (nets, hands, etc.) A failed copper treatment could also be a cause, what copper product did you use and at what concentration?
Jay

hello jay,

i used copper power for all qt tanks. i kept the concentration above 2.5ppm for > 30 days.

 

[Cali Reef Life]

How did you test for copper some of those test kits are very hard to read the correct levels. Did you also mix the copper in the salt water before doing water changes? Did you add any coral or inverts during the fallow period towards the end?

 

[Medmondsii]

Also another thought, any new snails/coral introduced that may have brought in the parasite after the fallow?

nope the tank was completely fallow. i added nothing to the display tank

 

[Medmondsii]

How did you test for copper some of those test kits are very hard to read the correct levels. Did you also mix the copper in the salt water before doing water changes? Did you add any coral or inverts during the fallow period towards the end?

i used hanna checker for copper. i added nothing to the tank during the fallow peroid. during the 30 days. i didnt do water change on qt tank. just maintained >2.5 copper

 

[Cali Reef Life]

i used hanna checker for copper. i added nothing to the tank during the fallow peroid. during the 30 days. i didnt do water change on qt tank. just maintained >2.5 copper

Hmm that seems pretty good about copper treatment. What did you do after the 30 days of copper transfer the fish into a new qt or disinfect the QT tank. Since you went 75 days where were the fish in after you dropped the copper levels. Its possible some ich attached to substrate of qt after you dropped levels they attached to fish in qt. I have only used cupramine copper and successfully kept ich out of tank last 3 and half years by treating all new fish but had to go through a fallow period only did 60 days. I know some say its harsher but seems to work for me.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

hello jay,

i used copper power for all qt tanks. i kept the concentration above 2.5ppm for > 30 days.

Well, by all accounts, that shouldn't have happened, but if it was going to happen, it would be with an Achilles. I stopped acquiring those years ago, just not worth the risk/hassle IMO. Plenty more fish in the sea (grin).

So the next issue, as you said, is what to do now? Posting pictures/short video would help us gauge the level of infection. Not to question your experience (since I don't know what that is) not all white spots are ich. Tangs develop idiopathic mucus plugs, so I'd want to rule that out.

Siphoning the surface of the sand each morning can help reduce the theront production. The Polyp Lab Medic is apparently a peroxide salt, but like all "reef safe" medications, the dose needs to be so low that it is also "ich safe".
The trouble with UV flow rates and sizing is that most hobby-sized units do not have sufficient power at a low enough dwell time to control an active ich infection (though they do help limit chronic cases).

Jay

 

[Reeffraff]

I've also had a fallow period fail. 78 days of no fish and nothing added to the display tank. All fish were treated with a therapeutic level of copper sulfate (checked daily) for 4 weeks and then kept in the treatment tank without copper for the remainder of the fallow period in which no fish developed ich again. The fish weren't even in the same building as the display tank so no chance for any cross contamination. 2 weeks after re-adding fish, the telltale white spots showing up on bodies and fins.
Thankfully, I didn't lose additional fish because they likely already had exposure to this strain and had developed some immunity, so there was no massive outbreak as before. It's annecodotal, but to me was convincing that the 75 day fallow period that was determined in one study, doesn't apply to all strains of Cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[Medmondsii]

I would slow the flow rate down in the UV to just around 2 turnovers an hour, ~600 gph. Kill rate and flow rate work against each other so the faster the flow the lower the kill rate. For marine "ick" the needed dose of UVC is pretty high and I the stuff I've read it's much higher than for fresh water "ich". I'm assuming when you said your DT was fallow you took the foxface out and put it in the QT and treated with the other fish? The cysts can be transferred on any hard surface, have you added anything else to your DT that wasn't QTed?

currently the uv flow is too slow 180 gph. And i think its not able to keep up with the parasite. The parasite repoduces faster than the uv can kill it. This uv is a giant uv its a aquauv 120 watt. Look it up. the flow for killing ich is 1360 gph and im now where near that. I think raising my flow through the uv will help it greatly.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

My Maine thought is that the UV is to small. I would say that you would need around a 180w unit with about 3x tank turnover. Unfortunately very large units are required to control ich.

A healthy achilles in a healthy tank with good husbandry with the proper measures in place should handle ich no problem.

 

[Squidward]

I've heard of copper qurantine failing but TTM has never failed me.

 

[bnord]

Sorry bud, you are clearly on top of this and done everything right - you have all the experience in the world around this forum and all I can do is send good vibes and strength to get through it

 

[Medmondsii]

My Maine thought is that the UV is to small. I would say that you would need around a 180w unit with about 3x tank turnover. Unfortunately very large units are required to control ich.

A healthy achilles in a healthy tank with good husbandry with the proper measures in place should handle ich no problem.

So this uv won't don the trick? I thought I had oversized it for my tank?

I am doing big water changes weekly. Going through a box a salt a week. Im trying to get to the sand cleaning. I haven't done that yet..

Aqua Ultraviolet 120 watt UV, 2" w/unions, w/o wiper

Ultraviolet Sterilization is a proven, dependable, and effective method for controlling and eradicating algae spores, bacteria, and protozoa in the water source. Ultraviolet alters or disrupts the DNA and RNA of target organisms. The targeted organisms can be eradicated effectively without any...

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[Medmondsii]

Well, by all accounts, that shouldn't have happened, but if it was going to happen, it would be with an Achilles. I stopped acquiring those years ago, just not worth the risk/hassle IMO. Plenty more fish in the sea (grin).

So the next issue, as you said, is what to do now? Posting pictures/short video would help us gauge the level of infection. Not to question your experience (since I don't know what that is) not all white spots are ich. Tangs develop idiopathic mucus plugs, so I'd want to rule that out.

Siphoning the surface of the sand each morning can help reduce the theront production. The Polyp Lab Medic is apparently a peroxide salt, but like all "reef safe" medications, the dose needs to be so low that it is also "ich safe".
The trouble with UV flow rates and sizing is that most hobby-sized units do not have sufficient power at a low enough dwell time to control an active ich infection (though they do help limit chronic cases).

Jay

Jay I will take video tomorrow morning. That's when I see most of the white spots on all the tangs.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay I will take video tomorrow morning. That's when I see most of the white spots on all the tangs.

It’s probably ich, but just wanted to rule out other issues. Don’t hold up any of your planned treatments just to get the video though….
Jay

 

[Timfish]

currently the uv flow is too slow 180 gph. And i think its not able to keep up with the parasite. . . .

Sorry! I thought I read you had your UV set at 1380 gph. Yeah, 180 is slow, ich larva will have plenty of time to find new hosts before getting pushed through the UV. Running a UV at slower flow rates increases the exposure rate insuring better kill rates. But slower flow rates will give ich larva more time to find hosts. This is one reason it can be confusing and explains why many aquarists have had poor success using UVs for ich. Another variable is where the intake and return are located at. A UV installed in the sump doesn't do a good job of killing larva that are hatching out in the display tank. The setup I've found that gives the best results for dealing with ich in a display tank is to have at least 1 watt of UV for 10 gallons of water, 2-3 turnovers per hour and have a seperate pump lower down behind the aquascaping feeding the UV and have the return at the surface.