If its not CO2, then why low pH

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Speaking of which, I've been wondering to what extent fungi play a role in a reef environment. Let me know if you guys have any references.

I'd start here on marine fungi:

Marine fungi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ashibashi]

I'd start here on marine fungi:

Marine fungi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Randy, do you personally run a tank? If so I'd love to know details about what you're doing.

I'm still in the planning phase for mine and this conversation has gotten me started thinking that I might want to make it into more of a "controlled" (as well as an amateur in a bedroom could hope for) experiment than I had originally considered. In the interest of curiosity, what routine testing would you do and how? Do you have opinions on the most dependable commercial salts etc?

For clarity I have access to an R&D genomics lab and a medium-bad undergrad lab space where I help out my old PI's current students with their research projects (materials chemistry, but still, they have your standard essentials). I can do more reliable basic stuff like quantitative chem than the average bear and this looks like a decent excuse to play around with that. But if there were to ever be a point, I'd need to un-sloppify my setup as well as a newb could hope to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, do you personally run a tank? If so I'd love to know details about what you're doing.

I'm still in the planning phase for mine and this conversation has gotten me started thinking that I might want to make it into more of a "controlled" (as well as an amateur in a bedroom could hope for) experiment than I had originally considered. In the interest of curiosity, what routine testing would you do and how? Do you have opinions on the most dependable commercial salts etc?

For clarity I have access to an R&D genomics lab and a medium-bad undergrad lab space where I help out my old PI's current students with their research projects (materials chemistry, but still, they have your standard essentials). I can do more reliable basic stuff like quantitative chem than the average bear and this looks like a decent excuse to play around with that.

I ran it for 20 years, and have been taking a break from it. These may be interesting in this context:

Randy's Tank Description

In this thread, I thought I'd document my tank and the variety of methods I use on it. It has been set up since 1995, but it moved from a 90 to a 120 at one point, got broken down and the rocks scrubbed at another, and rock has been added to it a couple of times. As can be seen from the...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy's Dream Methodology

What husbandry would I do in a dream tank? (some of this may look familiar as some was posted elsewhere in other threads) In terms of water chemistry maintenance, I'd maintain calcium and alkalinity with limewater/kalkwasser (maybe pH limited to pH 8.55 or less to prevent overdose; probably on...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[srobertb]

So chasing the dragon here -- can't get above 8.01 units

>Surface Agitation --- NO EFFECT
>Opening windows --- NO EFFECT
>Running an oversized recirculating CO2 scrubber --- NO EFFECT
>Running line outside of the house, with recirculating skimmer --- NO EFFECT
>Keeping alkalinity rock steady --- NO EFFECT
>Combining everything above --- NO EFFECT
>Reading Randy's Article --- NO EFFECT

>Kalkwasser drip --- obvious positive effect but difficult in an 28 gallon all-in-one

What I haven't tried --

>Using soda ash for alkalinity -- I use ALL4Reef Calcium Formate at a rate of 15.5 mL per day.
>refugium, difficult to add on an AIO.

POSSIBLE Contributing Factors ?? --

>Two small damsels, one small clown, one small pseudochromis, 10 snails, mostly SPS
>Calcium Formate? Maybe? That's the other thing I can think of at this point
>Decay of bacterial population contributing to depressed pH

Concerns --

Since I stopped using kalkwasser a month ago as my primary method of calcium and alkalinity supplement due to safety concerns and limited ability to control the dose, my pH has been in the pits. 7.65 at night. Yes I've calibrated my probes, and checked them against some standard solutions. I am at a lost.

My sps have definitely stopped growing since I switched from kalkwasser. My alkalinity consumption has slowed down.

So the issue may be skimmer size or efficiency.

I have a 120g AIO with a Tunze skimmer and 2 XF350’s blasting the surface. I have run an oversized air intake from outside. I’m also still seeing swings from 8.2 during day to 7.8 at night.

I have tried a ton of macro algae and dosing Kalk and no bueno. Reverse lit and 24/7 lit.

I have 2 PH probes on an Apex- one a year old, one 1 monthold. Both calibrated using different brands of solution, both placed in different points in the tank. They read the same.

For you: In such a small tank, I would go back to dosing kalk if that was working and ignore PH unless something doesn’t look good.

This has to be the #1 frustration and “chase” in this hobby.

 

[GoVols]

Significant is relative. What is significant? What would it be with a proper natural sea water pH? If I can make safe simple steps to manage my pH without kalkwasser, why wouldn't I try? 7.83 average low to the new low of 7.96 just by a bigger skimmer and outside air.

Throwing salinity off with dosing kalkwasser to control pH. I am not sure how much it would take to "control" my tank without throwing off salinity, and dumping kalkwasser in.

Now that I've bumped up my low pH from the night time by putting on a bigger skimmer, it should be easier to manage with kalkwasser.

Been on a cal reactor so long, forgot about two-part or three-part dosing increasing a reef's salinity.

Does kalk raise salinty too?

 

[outhouse]

Does kalk raise salinty too?

Nope, not at all. my favorite piece of equipment tied into my ato

 

[Biologic]

I bet I'm underestimating the amount of air to water contact a skimmer contributes because I've never used one before. Also after having a bit of a think I realize - doesn't most of the water that interacts with skimmer air just end up in the nastiness cup?

Another thought im curious about - is OP's tank in their bedroom? If the pH drops substantially at night, I would think a human breathing in a closed room would be a bigger contribution to the balance than corals respiring the opposite direction during the day. In terms of units of carbon per hour, I'd be extremely surprised if a tank of corals outpaced even a small adult human. Supposing this is an effect that gets worse over time as CO2 builds up day after day, could higher pH slowly be achieved over time by keeping the windows open at night?

not in a bedroom. We sleep far way from the tank, but with central air, much of the air is likely homogenized.

living in the coastal south, makes you think twice opening up the windows at night. The times to open up windows are actually in the early spring and winter months!!

 

[Biologic]

So the issue may be skimmer size or efficiency.

I have a 120g AIO with a Tunze skimmer and 2 XF350’s blasting the surface. I have run an oversized air intake from outside. I’m also still seeing swings from 8.2 during day to 7.8 at night.

I have tried a ton of macro algae and dosing Kalk and no bueno. Reverse lit and 24/7 lit.

I have 2 PH probes on an Apex- one a year old, one 1 monthold. Both calibrated using different brands of solution, both placed in different points in the tank. They read the same.

For you: In such a small tank, I would go back to dosing kalk if that was working and ignore PH unless something doesn’t look good.

This has to be the #1 frustration and “chase” in this hobby.

it hasn’t been frustrating. I’ve found some success and learned some things along the way. Although the CO2 scrubber was kind of disappointing and yes frustrating, since it’s hyped up so much. Lol

I’ve found success by these steps in Randy’s article —

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

1. Increase aeration. Since the diurnal pH swing largely derives from changes in CO2 in the tank, “Perfect” aeration would nearly eliminate any pH swing. Nevertheless, perfect aeration is rather hard to accomplish in reef tank, but better aeration can decrease a large pH swing. — this is hard to achieve because perfect is like approaching the limit of Zero effect of indoor pH and aquarium inhabitants and overcoming their combined effect on the system, I think I’d need a skimmer that’s tripple the size of what I put on here to see only minor improvements relative to the improvements already seen.
2. Use limewater and other high pH alkalinity supplements only between late night and early morning. — definitely will implement this soon, this is like a cheat code in a video game.
3. Use CaCO3/CO2 reactors only between late morning and late evening. — don’t use one thankfully. likely never will. Even with a large tank.
4. Connect a reverse daylight tank or lit refugium to the existing system. — haven’t done this yet, but considering it. I am not going to inhabit it with macro algae. Mostly whatever it grows, great. I’d consider an algae scrubber plumbed outside even.
5. Increase the carbonate alkalinity. — keeping steady at ~8.5
6. Increase the boron level. — mine runs at around ~ 5.5 ppm, which has been steady throughout the short study. That is slightly above natural sea water.

This has largely started to disprove CO2’s effect in my situation and turned into a beginning of a deeper understanding the pH buffering system for me personally. Also a goal for me to set a stable alkalinity to help rule out its issues while improving system stability. So there’s been some wins along the way.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

it hasn’t been frustrating. I’ve found some success and learned some things along the way. Although the CO2 scrubber was kind of disappointing and yes frustrating, since it’s hyped up so much. Lol

I’ve found success by these steps in Randy’s article —

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

1. Increase aeration. Since the diurnal pH swing largely derives from changes in CO2 in the tank, “Perfect” aeration would nearly eliminate any pH swing. Nevertheless, perfect aeration is rather hard to accomplish in reef tank, but better aeration can decrease a large pH swing. — this is hard to achieve because perfect is like approaching the limit of Zero effect of indoor pH and aquarium inhabitants and overcoming their combined effect on the system, I think I’d need a skimmer that’s tripple the size of what I put on here to see only minor improvements relative to the improvements already seen.
2. Use limewater and other high pH alkalinity supplements only between late night and early morning. — definitely will implement this soon, this is like a cheat code in a video game.
3. Use CaCO3/CO2 reactors only between late morning and late evening. — don’t use one thankfully. likely never will. Even with a large tank.
4. Connect a reverse daylight tank or lit refugium to the existing system. — haven’t done this yet, but considering it. I am not going to inhabit it with macro algae. Mostly whatever it grows, great. I’d consider an algae scrubber plumbed outside even.
5. Increase the carbonate alkalinity. — keeping steady at ~8.5
6. Increase the boron level. — mine runs at around ~ 5.5 ppm, which has been steady throughout the short study. That is slightly above natural sea water.

This has largely started to disprove CO2’s effect in my situation and turned into a beginning of a deeper understanding the pH buffering system for me personally. Also a goal for me to set a stable alkalinity to help rule out its issues while improving system stability. So there’s been some wins along the way.

Great points, I can't stress how much automated alkalinity testing can be helpful here along with continuous pH monitoring. You can only control what you measure!

 

[Biologic]

Great points, I can't stress how much automated alkalinity testing can be helpful here along with continuous pH monitoring. You can only control what you measure!

I wish I had an auto tester. But just been keeping up with good husbandry.

Test every 3 days. If changed, adjust automatic doser to meet demand. Usually it’s a falling number, meaning the corals are consuming the dose given. Retest 24 hours later, then retest 24 hours later to get hopefully the same number. Hopefully the adjustment on the first day was correct and the value isn’t falling anymore. if so let it ride for 3 more days. If the dose was changed, then test again 24 later. Repeat until it’s consecutive two days in a row for a three day ride, then test again. Cycle repeats.

It keeps you testing, and gives you breaks to not meddle! This is the way I’ve been testing with All For Reef. Been keeping a 0.6 variance to steadier and steadier down to less than a 0.1 variance from value to value lately, which I don’t adjust at those value changes. Took a few weeks!

 

[jmichaelh7]

Dude are you sure your co2 scrubber media isn’t purple or slightly purple and needs to be changed out?

I had the same issue and realized my co2 scrubber was being exhausted quick’ and started replacing. Now I can barely keep ph below 8.4

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I wish I had an auto tester. But just been keeping up with good husbandry.

Test every 3 days. If changed, adjust automatic doser to meet demand. Usually it’s a falling number, meaning the corals are consuming the dose given. Retest 24 hours later, then retest 24 hours later to get hopefully the same number. Hopefully the adjustment on the first day was correct and the value isn’t falling anymore. if so let it ride for 3 more days. If the dose was changed, then test again 24 later. Repeat until it’s consecutive two days in a row for a three day ride, then test again. Cycle repeats.

It keeps you testing, and gives you breaks to not meddle! This is the way I’ve been testing with All For Reef. Been keeping a 0.6 variance to steadier and steadier down to less than a 0.1 variance from value to value lately, which I don’t adjust at those value changes. Took a few weeks!

Nice that works too! Automation helps but it's not necessary!

 

[Biologic]

Dude are you sure your co2 scrubber media isn’t purple or slightly purple and needs to be changed out?

I had the same issue and realized my co2 scrubber was being exhausted quick’ and started replacing. Now I can barely keep ph below 8.4

I do not think CO2 scrubbers are a long term sustainable solution at this time for the desired affect on pH, at least in my case. It made almost no difference. I am going to try it again with this larger skimmer. It would be great if I can control it to run only at night with a solenoid. But how long would it last to be worth the effort.