Im chasing numbers. Low nutrients.

zheka757

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So I created problems by getting cyeno algae now.
I start chasing nutrient problems due to several sps colonies after being in my tank for over a year started rtn.
My nitrate is always undetectable,
My phosfates will very from 0 to .15 but will return to zero in couple days tnx to my large refugium.
Here is my parameters:
Salinity 1.026
Alk range staying in 8 +- 1.0
Cal 450
Mag 1350
Nitrate 0
Phosphate 0-.15
Ph 7.8-8.3
Temp 80 to 81F
At the time when I was losing my sps both of my nitrates and phosfates was at 0. So I start feeding fish more, feeding corals. But still didn't help.
So for last week I start dosing neo nitro to increase nitrates. And here I am now concern because I see more and more cyeno growing, started on sandbed and now on rocks. Also started to dose energy ab+ by redsea.
Whole point of me doing it was to not lose corals. But I'm playing with chemistry of tank now, and not doing a good job at it. Looking for advice
 

Sean Clark

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Possibly lower your tank temp a couple of degrees over time and see how everything responds.
 

sixty_reefer

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Your choice of residual is starving your corals, that choice of residual is also damaging your beneficial bacteria allowing for ammonia to be redirected to other nuisance in the system, with this happening and adding a product that may contain ammonia and urea you may end up with a larger problem at hand.
I would advice to switch to calcium or potassium nitrate in order to raise nitrates, neophos is fine for phosphates and add a small maintenance dose of organic carbon to stimulate the beneficial bacteria growth and redirect ammonia back to bacteria. A carbohydrate based organic carbon source as reef actif would be my choice.
At this point I would also suggest stop over feeding as this may cause the Cyanobacteria to bloom further.

edit: you could keep the low residual no3 and po4 if you could find a more effective way to manage ammonia to offset the reduction in beneficial bacteria.
 
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Lasse

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Also started to dose energy ab+ by redsea.
I would stop that - otherwise I´m on the same track as @sixty_reefer but I would stop all DOC as long as I have cyano problems

Sincerely Lasse
 

arking_mark

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Just echoing that roughly over the last couple of months, my tank bottomed out on nitrate readings and my nuisance algae increased. No Coral issues, but as soon as I started Calcium Nitrate, I started to get diatoms. Overfeeding got my Nitrates back to 2ish but also came with elevated PO4. I've refreshed my cleaning crew, increased carbon dosing and skimming....which may be working.
 

sixty_reefer

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Just echoing that roughly over the last couple of months, my tank bottomed out on nitrate readings and my nuisance algae increased.
I often find myself in algae battling threads were folks try to deplete a system of nitrates or phosphates in they’re fighting against nuisance algae.
what many don’t realise yet is that depleting a system from no3 or po4 stalls the nitrifying heterotrophic beneficial bacteria that causes ammonia to become more available and redirected to algae growth in the best case scenario, often dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria can bloom if the cell is around in the system also.
Ammonia seems to be the trigger point to the start of all nuisance in our systems and the solution for all our problems could be as simple as improving our beneficial bacteria :)
In my opinion what you doing will eventually eradicate your system from nuisance algae.
 
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zheka757

zheka757

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20221207_174124.jpg

20221207_174144.jpg

Is taking chemical approach like ChemiClean, appropriate approach? Or is it bigger risk of losing corals?
 
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zheka757

zheka757

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Should I try to use chemiclean to get rid of cyenobacteria?
 

J1a

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I often find myself in algae battling threads were folks try to deplete a system of nitrates or phosphates in they’re fighting against nuisance algae.
what many don’t realise yet is that depleting a system from no3 or po4 stalls the nitrifying heterotrophic beneficial bacteria that causes ammonia to become more available and redirected to algae growth in the best case scenario, often dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria can bloom if the cell is around in the system also.
Ammonia seems to be the trigger point to the start of all nuisance in our systems and the solution for all our problems could be as simple as improving our beneficial bacteria :)
In my opinion what you doing will eventually eradicate your system from nuisance algae.
While I agree with you that heterotrophic bacteria (or the lack of) is probably highly correlated to nuisance algae blooms, I don't think ammonium is the key here.

While dino and cyano can use ammonium more effectively than nitrates, they can also carry out heterotrophy. Therefore my understanding at this point of time is that the presence of excessive organic compounds, combined with the lack of other heterotrophic bacteria population, causes harmful algae bloom. If any of these 2 factors are absent or weak, it is unlikely to initiate a bloom.


This is an interesting article which describes possible triggering factors of harmful algae bloom.
 

sixty_reefer

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While I agree with you that heterotrophic bacteria (or the lack of) is probably highly correlated to nuisance algae blooms, I don't think ammonium is the key here.

While dino and cyano can use ammonium more effectively than nitrates, they can also carry out heterotrophy. Therefore my understanding at this point of time is that the presence of excessive organic compounds, combined with the lack of other heterotrophic bacteria population, causes harmful algae bloom. If any of these 2 factors are absent or weak, it is unlikely to initiate a bloom.


This is an interesting article which describes possible triggering factors of harmful algae bloom.
I agree most dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria have the ability of being both heterotrophic and autotrophic if photosynthesis is removed. I’m the sea blooms often start in a similar way as nitrogen from farming enters the rivers, lakes and sea that’s a problem that many folks agree on. In NPK fertiliser the main ingredient is ammonium nitrate often referred as nitrogen.
Some Cyanobacteria also has the ability to use atmospheric nitrogen this is why some species become so complicated to remove once settled on a system they can change they’re ability in assimilating different nutrients
 

J1a

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I agree most dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria have the ability of being both heterotrophic and autotrophic if photosynthesis is removed. I’m the sea blooms often start in a similar way as nitrogen from farming enters the rivers, lakes and sea that’s a problem that many folks agree on. In NPK fertiliser the main ingredient is ammonium nitrate often referred as nitrogen.
Some Cyanobacteria also has the ability to use atmospheric nitrogen this is why some species become so complicated to remove once settled on a system they can change they’re ability in assimilating different nutrients
In the article I linked, they commented that harmful algae bloom occurs (even more) with low phosphate and DIN (which ammonium is part of).
 

sixty_reefer

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In the article I linked, they commented that harmful algae bloom occurs (even more) with low phosphate and DIN (which ammonium is part of).
I believe we talking about the same thing. Low phosphates can cause a limitation in the heterotrophic bacteria and in addition both out systems and the sea are DOC limited, being DOC limiting is the reason DIN can rise both in our systems and the sea.
 

J1a

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I believe we talking about the same thing. Low phosphates can cause a limitation in the heterotrophic bacteria and in addition both out systems and the sea are DOC limited, being DOC limiting is the reason DIN can rise both in our systems and the sea.
that's why this particular case study is very interesting. Originally the bay has algae bloom consist of mainky diatoms. As the environment improve- phosphate and DIN decreases to low levels, the HAB did not subside. Instead the species changes, from diatom to dino.

So what are the factors causing this shift? One of them is the impact of increased organic compounds in the water body.

As for DOC limiting. I would say our aquarium system could have excessive DOC, as likely as excess N or P. In fact many aquarist proactively remove organics from the system through activated carbon. In general though, I agree with you that C N and P interacts heavily in marine systems.
 

sixty_reefer

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that's why this particular case study is very interesting. Originally the bay has algae bloom consist of mainky diatoms. As the environment improve- phosphate and DIN decreases to low levels, the HAB did not subside. Instead the species changes, from diatom to dino.

So what are the factors causing this shift? One of them is the impact of increased organic compounds in the water body.

As for DOC limiting. I would say our aquarium system could have excessive DOC, as likely as excess N or P. In fact many aquarist proactively remove organics from the system through activated carbon. In general though, I agree with you that C N and P interacts heavily in marine systems.
Not had time to fully read the article although the shift from diatoms to dinoflagellates sounds similar to what happens in our system that is once diatoms become limited by silica (only phytoplankton that can become limited by this nutrient) A new species will take they’re place for the same nutrients in this case was dinoflagellates although a increase in nuisance algae could also occur as they will be using the same nutrients.
It’s not uncommon for us in the hobby to have similar issues and once one nuisance is gone another will take they’re place and becomes a vicious circle we’re the route problem of why we have them never gets resolved, a good example is the first few months of a system also known as ugly stage, first diatoms then GHA then dinoflagellates then Cyanobacteria and many others to come, if we resolve the route issues we should have to deal with them it’s far more easy to resolve it in a small volume of water compared to try and manage it in the sea.
I’m a firm believer that DOC can be traced by how residual nitrates and phosphates concentration increases or decrease. Adding doc in out aquariums will reduce Nitrates and phosphates and with it reduce nitrogen and organic phosphates stripping DOC will get the opposite effect and increase Nitrates and phosphates and with it incredibly nitrogen and organic phosphates.
If the sea or our systems had unlimited DOC input the balance would be lost and only bacteria was able to survive in those conditions, the balance in the availability of DOC is what allows life as we know it to happen.

the C N P triage is connected and it’s balance is key for a functional healthy ecosystem. We only see issues occur in the sea and our systems once that balance is broken. A common examples is the limitations of nitrates or phosphates although that balance can also be broken with abundance of DOC normally creating similar issues wile having higher nutrients, it’s not uncommon for us to observe dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria bloom under high nutrients, high nutrients are often connected with a limitation in DOC
 
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MamaMolo

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I battled low nutrients in my 55 gallon and tried so had to keep my chaeto alive lol why! Lol I finally took out the chaeto and my nutrients went up to nitrate 10-20 and phosphate .o4-.08. Tank never looked better. I now run my 160 with no chaeto… just skimmer, and roller mat. Yesterday nitrates were 6 and .o3 phosphate And starting to see cyano so time to feed More. My point is that equipment these days works so great and We are usuing so many methods to battle nutrients that we are stripping nutrients and having to dose. I have dosed but I would remove chaeto first. I don’t get cyano or green hair algae at .04-.01 phosphate. and 5-10 nitrate. I start to see it when phosphate dips under .03
 
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