Industrial Filtration?

[Daniel 123]

Hi All,

New here to the community, my dad is starting to set up a 120g saltwater aquarium. He has been in contact with many people through word of mouth, trusting these store employees to guide him the best way all of you know how. Ordering all types of filtration and plumbing accessories. Its a little bit hard to believe all the money involved with the specialized equipment, protein skimmer, bio reactors, hundreds of dollars on rocks for bacteria? And when I say otherwise he says no this is what these very knowledgeable people are telling him to spend his money on.
I began to ask some questions.
Id like to pose them to you guys if that's ok.

Does the industry use commercial filtration such as bag filters and cartridge filters? Bacteria I found on the internet says most if not all can be filtered down at about 1 micron of filtration. I found a cannister filter and cartridge on Grainger costs about 250$ with a whole lot more surface area to promote bacteria growth than any of this rock Ive seen. A good pressure pump a y with a venture and now your feeding highly oxygenated water into a space that will literally thrive with all the junk that gets trapped by the filter. Mind you may increase other water chemistry parameters but cleaning that filter once a week seems like it could work.
How about a sand filter from a pool or jacuzzi? The surface area inside one of them, plus you have promote areas of anaerobic bacteria inside them, back wash them to clear them out, has anyone attempted or experimented with this? Even setting up a closed loop filter and pump with something like this it makes sense in my head, but ive never owned a fish tank. I just want to ensure the best outcome for my father.
Positive output Gravel filters those of your own custom making with a venturi increasing oxygen and some UV sterilizers in a loop it would seem like some really great filtering.
The next thought is will this cut down chemicals needed to be added?

I was looking at this reef ready tank he bought, its a Deep blue tank. Well the thought is what is the point of skimming the surface with 2 weirs all you need is surface agitation right, breaking the surface tension allowing oxygen in CO2 escape? I posed the question that doesn't all the food fed and the fish poop, it all sinks. If you created water movement that led to a piped inlets in the tank to the sump to help gather that poop and food before it sits on the rock and gravel wont you be further ahead with the cleaning? You could use the inlets throw them through a canister filter and then pump them back to the tank as your water movement.



Yet I see not much if any mention of any of these ideas, is it to keep the profit in the pockets where it is now? I say that only because these filtration methods when compared to what these companys and the internet says are required for 120g tank are MUCH cheaper solutions and in theory would prove to be much means of filtration than a protein skimmer or rock or bio reactor..etc.

Again, I only pose the questions and thoughts, Ive never operated a salt water tank before.

I just want to make sure hes headed on the right track, maybe some would even attempt to experiment, the bigger the surface area on the bag filters or cartridge, meaning the physical size. The better results you'll get, if anyone has questions about what I discussed please post them up for further discussion.

 

[Forsaken77]

Hi All,

New here to the community, my dad is starting to set up a 120g saltwater aquarium. He has been in contact with many people through word of mouth, trusting these store employees to guide him the best way all of you know how. Ordering all types of filtration and plumbing accessories. Its a little bit hard to believe all the money involved with the specialized equipment, protein skimmer, bio reactors, hundreds of dollars on rocks for bacteria? And when I say otherwise he says no this is what these very knowledgeable people are telling him to spend his money on.
I began to ask some questions.
Id like to pose them to you guys if that's ok.

Does the industry use commercial filtration such as bag filters and cartridge filters? Bacteria I found on the internet says most if not all can be filtered down at about 1 micron of filtration. I found a cannister filter and cartridge on Grainger costs about 250$ with a whole lot more surface area to promote bacteria growth than any of this rock Ive seen. A good pressure pump a y with a venture and now your feeding highly oxygenated water into a space that will literally thrive with all the junk that gets trapped by the filter. Mind you may increase other water chemistry parameters but cleaning that filter once a week seems like it could work.
How about a sand filter from a pool or jacuzzi? The surface area inside one of them, plus you have promote areas of anaerobic bacteria inside them, back wash them to clear them out, has anyone attempted or experimented with this? Even setting up a closed loop filter and pump with something like this it makes sense in my head, but ive never owned a fish tank. I just want to ensure the best outcome for my father.
Positive output Gravel filters those of your own custom making with a venturi increasing oxygen and some UV sterilizers in a loop it would seem like some really great filtering.
The next thought is will this cut down chemicals needed to be added?

I was looking at this reef ready tank he bought, its a Deep blue tank. Well the thought is what is the point of skimming the surface with 2 weirs all you need is surface agitation right, breaking the surface tension allowing oxygen in CO2 escape? I posed the question that doesn't all the food fed and the fish poop, it all sinks. If you created water movement that led to a piped inlets in the tank to the sump to help gather that poop and food before it sits on the rock and gravel wont you be further ahead with the cleaning? You could use the inlets throw them through a canister filter and then pump them back to the tank as your water movement.



Yet I see not much if any mention of any of these ideas, is it to keep the profit in the pockets where it is now? I say that only because these filtration methods when compared to what these companys and the internet says are required for 120g tank are MUCH cheaper solutions and in theory would prove to be much means of filtration than a protein skimmer or rock or bio reactor..etc.

Again, I only pose the questions and thoughts, Ive never operated a salt water tank before.

I just want to make sure hes headed on the right track, maybe some would even attempt to experiment, the bigger the surface area on the bag filters or cartridge, meaning the physical size. The better results you'll get, if anyone has questions about what I discussed please post them up for further discussion.

As for your dad spending all this cash... The fish store see's him with a bullseye on his back and will get him to buy the most stuff that's going to make them the most money. Having said that, starting a saltwater tank is expensive. I can't say if they're knowledgeable or not, but selling is the primary concern for most of those places. Keep that in mind.

Let's start with the filter. On saltwater we generally do not use canister filters. Not to mention, canisters are a pain to clean. Sump is where the filter socks go (no cartridges in a sump). That's where the heaters can go, and that's where the return pump goes. I wouldn't call it industrial either. I don't know specifically what you were calling industrial. The filter socks don't provide biological filtration at all. They are changed and washed at least once a week, so no bacteria could thrive there.

The rock does have a lot of beneficial bacteria. But this is a tougher situation for someone who doesn't know what they're looking at/for. If it's a dirty store, with messy tanks, the fish look sick, ect... They may have those tanks hooked up to the live rock tanks and disease could spread. You could also get unwanted pests that you bring home from the rock or store. There is cured live rock and uncured. He should get the cured rock. The rock is loaded with types of bacteria that take a long time to develop deep inside the rocks pores.

To get more bacteria growth, some people also use Marine Pure blocks (or something similar). It contains much more surface area for bacteria, but it's hard to build up the anaerobic bacteria that's inside the rock. Dry rock will develop it as well, it'll just take much longer.

Sand filters were used long ago, like 20 years ago, but too much detritus would get caught in them and they're difficult to clean. They're called "fluidized sand bed filters." Could be ok as a supplemental filter in the sump, but not a primary filter.

Gravel filters, which are called "under gravel filters," are not used anymore either. Just sucks all the crap to the sand for decay.

You can't feed food through any pump, if that's what you were saying, because it'll get crushed up. The overflows take water in and return water back. The surface skimming is to get crap out of the tank and bring it to the filter. Breaking the water surface for gas exchange happens when the water is returned after the filter. Two separate things.

A protein skimmer is a semi-efficient way to filter out dissolved organics that pass through the filter sock, like fish pee for example. The skimmer also helps oxygenate the water.

You say a "bio filter." That can mean a few different things. If it's a bio-pellet reactor, he doesn't need that now and most likely won't in the future. That's a more specialized product that I wouldn't suggest for a novice.

There are always people making their own stuff. We have a "DIY" forum for that.

If you have a list of what he's buying it would be easier to tell you. It sounds like they have him on the right track, the live rock being debateable, but the bio-pellet reactor may cause him problems and isn't a necessity by any means.

Tell him he has to cycle his tank BEFORE adding fish, to RESEARCH the fish or corals BEFORE he buys them. Add a fish once every 2 weeks to let your biological filter adjust. Some fish get to large, will fight with others, eat coral. Some coral are extremely difficult. If he's getting coral, lighting is very important.

He should also have a small quarantine tank to put new livestock in. We have a quarantine tank (QT) thread that explains its importance. If you don't quarantine you could potentially bring disease into your whole tank.

You guys should read a book about keeping saltwater animals so you know what will work. Everybody has a different tank and wants different things in their tank. Make sure it's a more recent book.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Hi All,

New here to the community, my dad is starting to set up a 120g saltwater aquarium. He has been in contact with many people through word of mouth, trusting these store employees to guide him the best way all of you know how. Ordering all types of filtration and plumbing accessories. Its a little bit hard to believe all the money involved with the specialized equipment, protein skimmer, bio reactors, hundreds of dollars on rocks for bacteria? And when I say otherwise he says no this is what these very knowledgeable people are telling him to spend his money on.
I began to ask some questions.
Id like to pose them to you guys if that's ok.

Does the industry use commercial filtration such as bag filters and cartridge filters? Bacteria I found on the internet says most if not all can be filtered down at about 1 micron of filtration. I found a cannister filter and cartridge on Grainger costs about 250$ with a whole lot more surface area to promote bacteria growth than any of this rock Ive seen. A good pressure pump a y with a venture and now your feeding highly oxygenated water into a space that will literally thrive with all the junk that gets trapped by the filter. Mind you may increase other water chemistry parameters but cleaning that filter once a week seems like it could work.
How about a sand filter from a pool or jacuzzi? The surface area inside one of them, plus you have promote areas of anaerobic bacteria inside them, back wash them to clear them out, has anyone attempted or experimented with this? Even setting up a closed loop filter and pump with something like this it makes sense in my head, but ive never owned a fish tank. I just want to ensure the best outcome for my father.
Positive output Gravel filters those of your own custom making with a venturi increasing oxygen and some UV sterilizers in a loop it would seem like some really great filtering.
The next thought is will this cut down chemicals needed to be added?

I was looking at this reef ready tank he bought, its a Deep blue tank. Well the thought is what is the point of skimming the surface with 2 weirs all you need is surface agitation right, breaking the surface tension allowing oxygen in CO2 escape? I posed the question that doesn't all the food fed and the fish poop, it all sinks. If you created water movement that led to a piped inlets in the tank to the sump to help gather that poop and food before it sits on the rock and gravel wont you be further ahead with the cleaning? You could use the inlets throw them through a canister filter and then pump them back to the tank as your water movement.



Yet I see not much if any mention of any of these ideas, is it to keep the profit in the pockets where it is now? I say that only because these filtration methods when compared to what these companys and the internet says are required for 120g tank are MUCH cheaper solutions and in theory would prove to be much means of filtration than a protein skimmer or rock or bio reactor..etc.

Again, I only pose the questions and thoughts, Ive never operated a salt water tank before.

I just want to make sure hes headed on the right track, maybe some would even attempt to experiment, the bigger the surface area on the bag filters or cartridge, meaning the physical size. The better results you'll get, if anyone has questions about what I discussed please post them up for further discussion.

Wow that's a heck of a lot of brainstorming, and congrats to your father for getting into what is surely the most captivating hobby I've ever encountered - and possibly the most challenging. All the things you mention have been tried. I mean literally everything in this hobby has been tried by someone in order to distill the most cost effective and beneficial way to manage filtration in a SW tank. At the minimal end I will tell you I've run client tanks with literally live rock, sand, an in- tank propeller type flow pump, a heater and a light. That's it, no sump tank or anything. It is the simplest setup equipment wise but requires more maintenance and careful attention to stocking levels and feeding amounts to be successful.

Do all the other things your dad is being told to buy work? Short answer - Yes. Are they necessary? Perhaps not, but I will say having a protein skimmer and UV sterilizer and other manner of filter devices can make the maintenance of a tank much easier so I will not eschew their usefulness in the slightest.

Just to clear up the reason his tank has a weir, and all tanks generally extract surface water with a weir, is because in SW there is an inevitable oily film that will build up on the surface rather quickly. This will impede gas exchange, light penetration, and is unsightly. Breaking the surface tension won't remove the oily film either. A weir or other surface strainer creates enough turbulence as water flows out to pull the film off the water and down into the sump filter where it can be metabolised by bacteria and/or extracted by a protein skimmer operating in the sump tank.

 

[mcarroll]

I can't say if they're knowledgeable or not, but selling is the primary concern for most of those places. Keep that in mind.

Something that's even more true with online shopping.

 

[mcarroll]

Its a little bit hard to believe all the money involved with the specialized equipment, protein skimmer, bio reactors, hundreds of dollars on rocks for bacteria? And when I say otherwise he says no this is what these very knowledgeable people are telling him to spend his money on.

Start off by getting one or two classic books on reefkeeping. @Dana Riddle's is excellent, Eric Borneman's Coral book, Fenner's...lots of great ones. Get more than two if you like to read!

Remember that the folks are trying to help someone get started so even if they know all the details they aren't going to drown a newbie with them – it's you and your dad's responsibility to fill in the gaps via reading.

I paid about as much for lights as I paid for rock....which was about the same as what I paid for the tank and stand.

Yes, it's expensive.

Check out garf.org.

Protein skimmer: Yes
Aeration is one of the most important things for a tank, after heating. It's filtration capabilities are widely over-rated – just a nice side-effect, IMO.

Bio Reactors: No
There's nothing you can put into a bio-reactor that you need to get started.

Live Rock: Yes
Dead Rock: No
Live rock is for a lot more than growing bacteria...again, that's just a nice side-effect IMO. Live rock will seed your tank will a virtually unknowable amount of different microbe that are all required for system stability in the long run.

Dead rock is good for growing bacteria and algae.

Bacteria In A Bottle: Yes
Something like BioSpira is a big help to get de-/nitrificiation started when you add a large bio-load at a tank's start. (Adding a large bio-load at once is still something to avoid, however.)

Not really needed if you start with live rock.

Not a substitute for live rock.

 

[Ocelaris]

I think what the others have posted is generally on track, so I won't rehash their points; however I would just make the general statement that pool filtration is basically the opposite of aquarium filtration. You can go to the extreme ends of the spectrum with pool filtration, where as with aquariums "more isn't always better". Aquarium filtration is more nuanced in the application of chemical, biological and mechanical filtration; too much of any will cause issues. There's an art to biological and chemical interactions of an aquarium that isn't accounted for a pool where the main motto is sterilize and kill. Think of an aquarium of a combination of a pool and gardening all in one, you have to consider the chemistry to support the flora/fauna, and most rough methods of filtration (which are still used in pools) have been deprecated years ago (I know I still have a pool ozone maker from two decades ago).

Most local fish stores (LFS) have good intentions. The best advice I can give is to have a good relationship with your local stores and ignore the pompous owners/sales clerk. A well meaning and honest relationship with a store will go a long way towards having an productive experience when things go wrong (which inevitably they will). Also see note at end about the two things you must do in this hobby.

This is a difficult and expensive hobby, because of those two things there is also a very high rate of failure. Most store owners know that keeping some one in the hobby is more important than making a quick buck. Most LFS don't have the luxury of being sales sharks as there are few stores that have survived the internet and big box pet store waves. What we have left is the ones who have an established customer bases and provide good service.

I would encourage your Dad to go to his local reef club, as that's the highlight of the hobby. I've learned a long time ago that after the buying binge excitement, "fish time" includes two things:

1) maintenance chores (which you either do or don't like)
2) fishy friends, a community which floats your spirits while away from the tank

If you miss either of the two, you will fail in this hobby and certainly not enjoy it.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Maybe I missed it, but is the tank one for fish only, or a reef aquarium? This could make a huge difference in choosing the lighting system and perhaps other equipment.

 

[reefwiser]

Most everything people add to their tank is extra stuff that they think might help them be successful.
It's the lets throw money at it to fix it situation. Nothing quality live rock and good skimmer and circulation would not fix.
Patience is the hardest thing a hobbyist has to learn. One can spend a lot of money on "equipment" that a little time and patience will actually do the trick.

 

[mcarroll]

Patience is the hardest thing a hobbyist has to learn. One can spend a lot of money on "equipment" that a little time and patience will actually do the trick.

Well said!

 

[Forsaken77]

Start off by getting one or two classic books on reefkeeping. @Dana Riddle's is excellent, Eric Borneman's Coral book, Fenner's...lots of great ones. Get more than two if you like to read!

Remember that the folks are trying to help someone get started so even if they know all the details they aren't going to drown a newbie with them – it's you and your dad's responsibility to fill in the gaps via reading.

I paid about as much for lights as I paid for rock....which was about the same as what I paid for the tank and stand.

Yes, it's expensive.

Check out garf.org.

Protein skimmer: Yes
Aeration is one of the most important things for a tank, after heating. It's filtration capabilities are widely over-rated – just a nice side-effect, IMO.

Bio Reactors: No
There's nothing you can put into a bio-reactor that you need to get started.

Live Rock: Yes
Dead Rock: No
Live rock is for a lot more than growing bacteria...again, that's just a nice side-effect IMO. Live rock will seed your tank will a virtually unknowable amount of different microbe that are all required for system stability in the long run.

Dead rock is good for growing bacteria and algae.

Bacteria In A Bottle: Yes
Something like BioSpira is a big help to get de-/nitrificiation started when you add a large bio-load at a tank's start. (Adding a large bio-load at once is still something to avoid, however.)

Not really needed if you start with live rock.

Not a substitute for live rock.

I would generally agree with the live rock part, but that's something you have to judge based on the store. Not an automatic "yes."

For example, a store by me has 3 tanks separate off the main line, but plumbed to each other. So water is passing between these 3 tanks. Those 3 tanks are two live rock tanks, and a hospital/treatment tank.

So any/all diseased fish are being QT'd and treated in the same tanks as the live rock tanks.

For someone who doesn't know any better, that could be a catastrophe waiting to happen, and because it's medicated, may not have much left in terms of beneficial bacteria.

That's why I said it's debatable, because it's not a given that you're getting good rock from any store.

I only know this because I asked what tanks were plumbed together. The top tank, the sick tank, filters water down through the 2 rock tanks below it. I sure as heck wouldn't want that rock.

 

[mcarroll]

The top tank, the sick tank, filters water down through the 2 rock tanks below it.

That sounds completely absurd – who would do that on purpose? ;Hilarious

Are you sure he didn't misspeak? Maybe he meant "shark tank" instead of "sick tank", or they just happened to be selling the rock from their QT system...or something?!

Thankfully, I don't think that's something anyone else will have to worry about running into. Wow!

Most dealers won't hook the rock curing system up to any other tanks since it can come in absolutely foul and nasty.

The "normal" problems to look out for are aiptasia and mojano's.

That and dead rock being sold as live. Is it live from the ocean, or not??

Everything else can be worked with. (Even pest anemone's if you're prepared for them.)

 

[Forsaken77]

That sounds completely absurd – who would do that on purpose? ;Hilarious

Are you sure he didn't misspeak? Maybe he meant "shark tank" instead of "sick tank", or they just happened to be selling the rock from their QT system...or something?!

Thankfully, I don't think that's something anyone else will have to worry about running into. Wow!

Most dealers won't hook the rock curing system up to any other tanks since it can come in absolutely foul and nasty.

The "normal" problems to look out for are aiptasia and mojano's.

That and dead rock being sold as live. Is it live from the ocean, or not??

Everything else can be worked with. (Even pest anemone's if you're prepared for them.)

Lol ;Shamefullyembarrased. I know it's absurd. I believe it was one of those big chain stores, not Petco, maybe Petsmart. The 3 rack system of 30 gallon tanks was completely separate from the whole wall mounted system, so it was easy to see. I just didn't know if it was on the main system until I asked how everything was plumbed.

I ended up finding this out after buying a gorgeous Harlequin Tusk from the top sick tank (which I was unaware was the sick tank) while getting dog food. The next time I went back they asked me how it was doing because he was being treated for ich in that tank. Didn't bother to tell me that BEFORE I bought it.

But there's quite a lot of people that when starting out, buy fish, rock, ect... from big chain stores that have no idea what they're doing (the store). Case in point . That's why I usually suggest it's better if you know what you're looking for just because I ran across this crazy setup which I'm sure is more common than you think in those stores. If you think about it, how much live rock does a chain store sell? Probably next to nothing, and the employees don't understand how an ich cycle works. How could rocks get infected? Lol.

So while I agree real rock is definitely better, I no longer assume it is reliable in every store.