Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me

[brandon429]

the number of fish-in cycles that go untested every day in this hobby is likely upwards of a thousand per day every day, imagine all the sw tanks in the world getting setup like we do and they're all using the same methods we use which is get tank, get bottle bac, read on label it supports fish in cycling, add fish, fish does fine because its not burnt and the label was correct, fish dies of brook or uro or crypto 6 mos later having nothing to do with cycling heh


for us to be able to see, finally, with a good meter what bac + fish in and no live rocks measures will help the hobby it is not a mean test. its one of thousands, but with an intent and a legit use this fish needs treated anyway.

 

[CoralClasher]

that seems already in motion! nice work Jon for sure. the main aim was to see if bottle bac from any brand they commonly use as fish-in would allow for controlled safe ammonia

the rocks you have are plenty of surface area, look clean, should be fine. what kind of bottle bac are we using to test carry ability

*one small detail, copper might interfere with nitrification am not sure. w have to read up on it

but we could learn about the ability of bottle bac well before the copper~

So I have a week before the Dr. Tim’s one and only experiment, should I just keep everything dry till then or soak the the rocks in RODI? What’s the normal startup process for this experiment?

 

[brandon429]

Making the bottle bac the only source of bac. It’s ok to use the rock wet or dry won’t matter

what the majority of folks do is add water fish bottle bac to a tank with some rocks and sand, the fish act normal. We always have to just guess how high the levels are going

 

[CoralClasher]

Update experiment 1. Ten gallon QT started with all new water on 2/12/21, no bottle bacteria, the plastic biological filter was soaked in DT sump for 30 days. Fish was added day one.
Today is day 7. Ammonia has slowly climbed to 0.021. I just did my first water change of 4 gallons and ammonia dropped to 0.015. I have not seen the ammonia drop by it’s self just a slow climb. The fish is camera shy but is eating and acting fine.

 

[brandon429]

Fascinating and precise measure, that’s showing us the very tight controls from the small bit of surface area but it’s directly in the flow path, amplifying it’s ability. Really nice to see how it works


per Tuffloud’s thread connecting two reefs, we know inert surfaces submerged in any reef water take on filtration bacteria within a month

Dilution is helping but only a while, after 2 days then the surface area is legit keeping a compound rise from happening.

*if you get a slow rise that clearly shows trending towards lethality then we may not have enough surface area without some wool or sponge in line

 

[CoralClasher]

I’m sure the copper I’m using in this QT isn’t helping the bacteria. I do have filter floss in the filter. What’s considered lethal amount of ammonia?

 

[brandon429]

TBD unfortunately Im not sure. I have seen Taricha and others mention .2 max only in passing discussion of possible lethal maximums, but I am certain the fish will show marked behavioral changes when the time comes and that link between the behavioral change and the digital readout is what the hobby does not have so far.

nh3 is the most toxic compound biologically produced in the system... exactly like a larger animal incurring kidney failure, there are no outliers who act normal when nh3 accumulates its a show stopper. lethargy and gasping and not feeding is always the associate across animal spectrum

there are clownfish breeding logs online that show maximum nh3 levels but I don't know what they are

 

[Garf]

I’m sure the copper I’m using in this QT isn’t helping the bacteria. I do have filter floss in the filter. What’s considered lethal amount of ammonia?

I’ve been led to believe that copper doesn’t affect bacteria in a new set up / quarantine scenario.

 

[CoralClasher]

I’ve been led to believe that copper doesn’t affect bacteria in a new set up / quarantine scenario.

Yeah I don’t know as this is my first QT with a Seneye. I do have 17 fish in my DT that made it through copper and normally I just changed water when it turns a slight haze. What is a safe level of ammonia in a QT like this?

 

[puffy127]

Update experiment 1. Ten gallon QT started with all new water on 2/12/21, no bottle bacteria, the plastic biological filter was soaked in DT sump for 30 days. Fish was added day one.
Today is day 7. Ammonia has slowly climbed to 0.021. I just did my first water change of 4 gallons and ammonia dropped to 0.015. I have not seen the ammonia drop by it’s self just a slow climb. The fish is camera shy but is eating and acting fine.

I’m sure the copper I’m using in this QT isn’t helping the bacteria. I do have filter floss in the filter. What’s considered lethal amount of ammonia?

Are these ammonia levels with or without copper in the system? If with copper, what kind (cupramine or copper power/coppersafe) and at what levels (ppm)?

 

[puffy127]

I have found chelated copper giving elevated ammonia levels with my seneye so if you have copper in your system, that may be a confounder in this experiment.

 

[CoralClasher]

Are these ammonia levels with or without copper in the system? If with copper, what kind (cupramine or copper power/coppersafe) and at what levels (ppm)?

I’m using Cuprion ionic copper at 9 drops per 10 gallons. Hanna checker says 0.17ppm

 

[CoralClasher]

The ammonia has stayed 0.016 for almost 24 hours now after the water change yesterday.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Lots of study has been done on the effects of ammonia on aquatic life

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es00089a012

Mabey I misunderstood what is hypothesis? That the ammonia may not be directly harmful due to its state?

 

[brandon429]

It’s that we want to be able to state for fish in cycles whether it’s harming fish or not, reaching painful levels etc or safe and controlled ones due to the bac

the setup above is a little different but still testing surface area minimums in a neat way, accurately measured for once vs just color kits


marine fish toxicity levels and even more specific to common cycles clownfish levels would be an ideal reference. I think that one is for trout but it’s at least a starting reference for levels still reading

 

[N.Sreefer]

Okay sorry i did misunderstand this may be helpful to you

(PDF) Ammonia and nitrite toxicity to false clownfish Amphiprion ocellaris

PDF | False clownfish, Amphiprion ocellaris, is one of the most commercialized fish species in the world, highly produced to supply the aquarium market.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[CoralClasher]

Update experiment 1. Ten gallon QT started with all new water on 2/12/21, no bottle bacteria, the plastic biological filter was soaked in DT sump for 30 days. Fish was added day one.
Today is day 7. Ammonia has slowly climbed to 0.021. I just did my first water change of 4 gallons and ammonia dropped to 0.015. I have not seen the ammonia drop by it’s self just a slow climb. The fish is camera shy but is eating and acting fine.

Update experiment #1 ammonia has been stable at 0.018 since Saturday. I haven’t needed to change water this week. I only have two more days of copper then I’ll start experiment #2.

 

[brandon429]

Jon that's valuable info. the system is stabilizing in a predictable vs totally random manner. We need to research to see if copper can affect reading, is it high or low tendency?

this is 100% what I would expect the fish to register in a non copper setup, slightly higher above thousandths because the surface area is not craggy rocks and sand. this above is very very helpful info, very new. Not much of this type of detail can be found, this is part of the early data logging on nh3 variances tank to tank -related to surface area presentation-
I wont forget this thread in referencing various questions about cycling/qt cycling especially.

if there's ever a time you can run a form of the setup without the copper, say after he's graduated and look for the same carry capacity on new filtration media (just to the point where it stabilizes that's where it will continue to hold given same exports/feed rates) that'd be spot on

you are also able to clearly demonstrate above the fish is not pained. if its been eating its not pained, the degree of nh3 emitted is not burning cells yet its in tolerable adaptive ranges obviously. water = clear etc. we now have a behavioral verification on a given nh3 rate above norm=new data building.

its gill motion/opercular counts are specifically how marine biologists/aquaculturists assess fish toxicity from ammonia burning along with other factors, he's breathing fine and oriented fine for the species.

 

[CoralClasher]

Jon that's valuable info. the system is stabilizing in a predictable vs totally random manner. We need to research to see if copper can affect reading, is it high or low tendency?

this is 100% what I would expect the fish to register in a non copper setup, slightly higher above thousandths because the surface area is not craggy rocks and sand. this above is very very helpful info, very new. Not much of this type of detail can be found, this is part of the early data logging on nh3 variances tank to tank -related to surface area presentation-
I wont forget this thread in referencing various questions about cycling/qt cycling especially.

if there's ever a time you can run a form of the setup without the copper, say after he's graduated and look for the same carry capacity on new filtration media (just to the point where it stabilizes that's where it will continue to hold given same exports/feed rates) that'd be spot on

you are also able to clearly demonstrate above the fish is not pained. if its been eating its not pained, the degree of nh3 emitted is not burning cells yet its in tolerable adaptive ranges obviously. water = clear etc. we now have a behavioral verification on a given nh3 rate above norm=new data building.

its gill motion/opercular counts are specifically how marine biologists/aquaculturists assess fish toxicity from ammonia burning along with other factors, he's breathing fine and oriented fine for the species.

Yeah the fish is acting fine and eating. I’m preparing for the next experiment. I have the new crushed coral rinsed and ready. Soon as I got the rocks wet in the sink I smell bleach. The last time I used these rocks was for QT with copper a year ago. Should I even use them? I did soak them in bleach and rinsed them then been drying for a year.

 

[brandon429]

@Dan_P can you let us know if you feel that prior copper treated substrates would affect nitrification testing. I wouldn't think the old rocks would, was mainly concerned about the actively-dosed system altering the reading.

lots of people reef with prior copper rocks and can't keep snails, but their biofilter works and that's our aim here for study.