I've been checking out the prices of ppl selling tangs on these forums. Prices are alil crazy. So my question is, is Hawaii closed for good? Ask for a friend
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
I would love to, but I need to be more educated on fisheries, environment and economies around fisheries. If not, I would a hypocrite acting on emotions.You’re most welcome. I fully agree with you on everything you stated.
if you could, join the fight. Sign up with Pijac and let’s raise an army of reefers to protect what we love.
While I agree with your point about culturing fish that are harder to collect/harder to keep alive in captivity, there is something to be said about companies doing what companies do best: going to where the money is. On top of the supply issue from the HI collection ban, yellow tangs have always been so popular it was like a perfect storm for these companies like Biota to capitalize and make big money by powering up their production of what is arguably the most popular tang in the world.Good morning Bert!
wasnt side stepping you or avoiding you or whatever. Your comments didn’t ping my notifications or they got lost in a batch of them. Let me try to answer your questions. Your central argument is based on two points. One, a full on ban will happen, and two, You think, I think, aquaculture is bad. The first point is predicated on a hypothetical and the only reason it becomes a reality is people such as yourself, giving up in defending what’s the truth,and what is right. The fact of the matter is that if people would actually organize, or put some effort into the defense of science based management, a ban will never materialize.(and if it still did, the hobby will be crushed inevitability)
Keep in mind that the radical environmentalist have been trying to ban the Hawaii fishery for over 20 years and it’s never happened. The reason for that is the fishery became more organized, more managed and we persisted. Hawaii only got caught up in this environmental review process because of judicial activism and the simple fact that the trade/hobby didn’t put up a proper resistance. Some did, most did not. They don’t want to be bothered with it. They assume if they just have their aquarium with a couple sticks roasting under radions, maybe a snowflake clown from ORA….it’s all good. But is it? Do you understand the thought process of our opposition? Do you understand their goals? Do you know how “wildlife” is classified? I would question your depth of knowledge on who the industry/hobby is tangling with. Maybe do yourself a favor and go read Pijacs info page as a primer and if you need advanced material…circle back to me as I’ve been fighting these people for over a decade.
They will not stop until the trade/hobby is decimated. The only way to stop them is to start fighting back immediately. Defend sustainable practices. Don’t vacate the field without a fight. Like I said, you won’t aquaculture your way out of it. The only way we win is for sustainable fisheries, aquaculture, and the hobby to organize and fight. All three components are vital
second, I never said aquaculture is bad nor do I think that.Your making an argument against one I never made. That’s not what I said, go reread the context.
i think that there is a wide field of fish or even certain corals that are prime candidates for aquaculture. Then there are ones that are not…especially when they’re being sustainably managed. The tech for food production and larviculture applies to virtually all the broadcast spawners. The problem is the effort and the yield. This is why focus should be on fish that are dangerous to collect, restricted, from areas where poor practices persist,etc etc
Just look at Hawaiian fish for example. The Achilles tang is a prime candidate for aquaculture. The data shows it’s struggling, the fishers voluntarily restricted themselves from taking it, it’s not necessarily a robust species in captivity, and it’s valuable. Prime candidate for AC versus a yellow tang. Yellow tangs: very well managed. In fact, the MOST managed fish in the aquarium industry worldwide. Does excellent in captivity. Provides income for many at the source. Inexpensive(not lately but will be again)
I support aquaculture. If I didn’t I wouldn’t have spent so much time doing it for a large portion of my life. But I also support science based management. When I apply my knowledge of both to the bigger picture of our hobby/trade and then consider who the critics are and what they actually want, I see a distinct path that we need to walk if this thing is going to exist into the future.
the hobby and aquaculture are very much dependent on wild stock…..it’s the vast majority of the hobby…always has been.
Best we support sustainable practices, aquaculture what we should, and put our passion into our efforts of fighting the good fight. We only lose if you do NOTHING.
aloha my friend
Total island population figures are dubious because science predominantly counts yellow tangs in West Hawaii(where most fishing occurs) and the studies look at the power band of the habitat, 30 to 60 foot depth range and it only counts fish that are a certain size. There is a metric called YOY,or year of the young Which means juvenile fish are not counted in population estimates until they reach a certain size. The size varies species to species. Unfortunately, this means that millions of fish are unaccounted for as the yellow tang population becomes denser as you go smaller. When the fish recruit, this is when millions and millions come in during spawning season. Aquarium fisherman primarily target these juvenile fish, not larger ones in any quantity.Meaning most of what is collected isn’t even part of the counts….does that make sense? And even though that’s occurring, the numbers are increasing.I would love to, but I need to be more educated on fisheries, environment and economies around fisheries. If not, I would a hypocrite acting on emotions.
You do make a very convincing argument. However, the environment is such a complicated issue. Separating politics and science is impossible.
Not questioning you, but doing a quick check on the math. The number of yellow tangs in west Hawaii 20 million (1% of total west Hawaii population is 200K). That is alot of yellow tangs. Now if you add up the east, south and west and doing some really stupid math, total population of yellow tangs in Hawaii is around 80million?
That’s for oahu, not the big islandFor those looking for a graphic of what collectors are potentially collecting again, here's a list from Coral Fish Hawaii on Oahu. This was posted back in September, so I don't know if anything has changed since then.
And like I said earlier, if you look at the proposed TAC(total allowable catch) compared to the west Hawaii population (30-60 feet) it’s roughly 3%(180-210k based on 6-7 million)Total island population figures are dubious because science predominantly counts yellow tangs in West Hawaii(where most fishing occurs) and the studies look at the power band of the habitat, 30 to 60 foot depth range and it only counts fish that are a certain size. There is a metric called YOY,or year of the young Which means juvenile fish are not counted in population estimates until they reach a certain size. The size varies species to species. Unfortunately, this means that millions of fish are unaccounted for as the yellow tang population becomes denser as you go smaller. When the fish recruit, this is when millions and millions come in during spawning season. Aquarium fisherman primarily target these juvenile fish, not larger ones in any quantity.Meaning most of what is collected isn’t even part of the counts….does that make sense? And even though that’s occurring, the numbers are increasing.
That aside, the current way of counting fish says the population in that specific habitat range is roughly 6-7 million for just west Hawaii. This doesn’t account for the countable fish in the shallows or in the deep. Adult yellow tangs live in the surf. Our reefs run out to 90 feet approximately which means 30 feet of prime habitat is NOT accounted for. Rough estimates have been made by scientists in the know and island wide numbers are around 20 million not counting the YOY. It’s complicated how we parsed our figures because we are only fishing in west Hawaii but our figures include island wide estimates and west Hawaii estimates which are different data sets governed by different methodologies
You've quoted this a number of times and mentioned a study. Do you happen to have a link to said study? I'm very interested to read it. Is that one specific figure specific to the west Hawaii fishery?Your biggest issue shouldn’t be an issue at all if you read the scientific findings. Less than 1% of the fish perish from collection to retail.
It’s been awhile since I looked at it as it was done quite some time ago. I believe it was done by either Tissot or Munday and it’s for Hawaii. If I recall correctly it’s from West Hawaii on a two part study. The first part was about handling of fish during collectionYou've quoted this a number of times and mentioned a study. Do you happen to have a link to said study? I'm very interested to read it. Is that one specific figure specific to the west Hawaii fishery?
Appreciate it. I've recently had an aquaculture/captive bred only mindset for myself, but some of what you've presented here is potentially swaying that. I'm going to try to look into some other well managed fisheries and see what I can learn.It’s been awhile since I looked at it as it was done quite some time ago. I believe it was done by either Tissot or Munday and it’s for Hawaii. If I recall correctly it’s from West Hawaii on a two part study. The first part was about handling of fish during collection
Lemme contact a friend and see if I can get the paper forwarded to me and I’ll post it
I am referring to point of collection, to organism arriving at mainland USA. What happens in the hobbyist tanks hasn’t been studied that I’m aware of.I’m just jumping in to make a quick comment, it seems a lot of people are getting hemmed up on the perceived death rate vs the less than 1% that Kona is quoting. I believe what’s happening is wording. Kona is stating less than 1% death rate collection to retail. Even though that is specific to Hawaii, I think, nowadays, that number is semi-realistic to all other places that collect as well due to improving collection and husbandry practices.
That said, I think some people are thinking the old school “dynamite” collection while others are looking at death in retail tanks.
However, once at retail, Konas 1% figure no longer would apply based on my understanding of the wording. The study ended on the fish making it to retail. The difference being that once at retail is when many fish perish due to sickness, shipping delays, etc and then at the hobbiest level due to inexperience, ignorance, or sickness. I suppose it also depends on the meaning of “retail”. Is retail my LFS or simply making it to the wholesaler here in the states or other countries?
I am curious about the study as well and hope to get to read it once it’s posted.
Agreed. The primary stakeholders/community support the fishery. The management plan was designed and vetted with various local stakeholders, Hawaiians and local environmental groups through the West Hawaii Fishery Council. This was an outgrowth of Act 306 which mandated the development of a management plan.I read a great perspective in Fish magazine about this issue. I was all for opening Hawaii again but after reading it, I think the local community should decide for themselves whether collecting for the ornamental fish trade is okay, both culturally and for ecological reasons. So if it opens or closes forever, as long as the primary stakeholders are happy, I’m happy.
Worth a buy for anyone in the hobby or who likes fish/fishing.Fish- A literary celebration of scale and fin - Practical Fishkeeping
Habitats and history, conservation and culture, art appreciation, current affairs and cooking, Fish contains all of this and more. For anyone with a passing interest in the piscine world — angler, aquarium hobbyist, even the lay natural history fan — Fish offers in-depth stories that are...www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
I agree most of the yellow tangs I saw for sale before the shutdown did not look good at all. How much are these going for?
Here is what Tina Owens of the Lost Fish Coalition in Kailua-Kona has to say about the fishery and outsiders dictating to the people of West Hawaii. Keep in mind, Tina used to be the biggest critic until community based management was achieved and a strong working relationship with the fishers themselves. A respectful relationship between the two groups was established and it really is an example of a problem being solved and middle ground being achieved:Agreed. The primary stakeholders/community support the fishery. The management plan was designed and vetted with various local stakeholders, Hawaiians and local environmental groups through the West Hawaii Fishery Council. This was an outgrowth of Act 306 which mandated the development of a management plan.
What started this moratorium was a court ruling by a non local, international environmental group called earth justice. They worked under the direction of a smaller environmental group called for the fishes(based on another island) to overturn what our community decided on and supported. Our interests in west Hawaii have literally been dictated by outside entities that aren’t even from here and they accomplished this with big corporate dollars funneled through NGOs.
ill have a look at your link but what I stated above is what actually transpired
I’ll have the research paper soon.Appreciate it. I've recently had an aquaculture/captive bred only mindset for myself, but some of what you've presented here is potentially swaying that. I'm going to try to look into some other well managed fisheries and see what I can learn.