brick-brothers
Active Member
I've been checking out the prices of ppl selling tangs on these forums. Prices are alil crazy. So my question is, is Hawaii closed for good? Ask for a friend
Is Hawaii Close For Good?
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Sleepingtiger
Well-Known Member
I would love to, but I need to be more educated on fisheries, environment and economies around fisheries. If not, I would a hypocrite acting on emotions.
You do make a very convincing argument. However, the environment is such a complicated issue. Separating politics and science is impossible.
Not questioning you, but doing a quick check on the math. The number of yellow tangs in west Hawaii 20 million (1% of total west Hawaii population is 200K). That is alot of yellow tangs. Now if you add up the east, south and west and doing some really stupid math, total population of yellow tangs in Hawaii is around 80million?
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Steve and his Animals
Well-Known Member
While I agree with your point about culturing fish that are harder to collect/harder to keep alive in captivity, there is something to be said about companies doing what companies do best: going to where the money is. On top of the supply issue from the HI collection ban, yellow tangs have always been so popular it was like a perfect storm for these companies like Biota to capitalize and make big money by powering up their production of what is arguably the most popular tang in the world.
That being said, I said earlier that I agree with your side of the argument, but it is something to keep in mind when debating which species should be prioritized. Companies will do what they need to to stay afloat in their market, and if they can get a successful baseline then they might be better equipped to work on other species that need it, like the Achilles tang you mentioned. Just my two cents.
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Steve and his Animals
Well-Known Member
For those looking for a graphic of what collectors are potentially collecting again, here's a list from Coral Fish Hawaii on Oahu. This was posted back in September, so I don't know if anything has changed since then.
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Kona Diver
Active Member
Total island population figures are dubious because science predominantly counts yellow tangs in West Hawaii(where most fishing occurs) and the studies look at the power band of the habitat, 30 to 60 foot depth range and it only counts fish that are a certain size. There is a metric called YOY,or year of the young Which means juvenile fish are not counted in population estimates until they reach a certain size. The size varies species to species. Unfortunately, this means that millions of fish are unaccounted for as the yellow tang population becomes denser as you go smaller. When the fish recruit, this is when millions and millions come in during spawning season. Aquarium fisherman primarily target these juvenile fish, not larger ones in any quantity.Meaning most of what is collected isn’t even part of the counts….does that make sense? And even though that’s occurring, the numbers are increasing.
That aside, the current way of counting fish says the population in that specific habitat range is roughly 6-7 million for just west Hawaii. This doesn’t account for the countable fish in the shallows or in the deep. Adult yellow tangs live in the surf. Our reefs run out to 90 feet approximately which means 30 feet of prime habitat is NOT accounted for. Rough estimates have been made by scientists in the know and island wide numbers are around 20 million not counting the YOY. It’s complicated how we parsed our figures because we are only fishing in west Hawaii but our figures include island wide estimates and west Hawaii estimates which are different data sets governed by different methodologies
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Kona Diver
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That’s for oahu, not the big islandFor those looking for a graphic of what collectors are potentially collecting again, here's a list from Coral Fish Hawaii on Oahu. This was posted back in September, so I don't know if anything has changed since then.
Two separate and distinct fisheries
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Kona Diver
Active Member
And like I said earlier, if you look at the proposed TAC(total allowable catch) compared to the west Hawaii population (30-60 feet) it’s roughly 3%(180-210k based on 6-7 million)
the percent of take drops when you allow in the rest of the population to less than 1%(but still not counting YOY)
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FEED ME ZOAS
Eater of Zoas
You've quoted this a number of times and mentioned a study. Do you happen to have a link to said study? I'm very interested to read it. Is that one specific figure specific to the west Hawaii fishery?
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Kona Diver
Active Member
It’s been awhile since I looked at it as it was done quite some time ago. I believe it was done by either Tissot or Munday and it’s for Hawaii. If I recall correctly it’s from West Hawaii on a two part study. The first part was about handling of fish during collection
Lemme contact a friend and see if I can get the paper forwarded to me and I’ll post it
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FEED ME ZOAS
Eater of Zoas
Appreciate it. I've recently had an aquaculture/captive bred only mindset for myself, but some of what you've presented here is potentially swaying that. I'm going to try to look into some other well managed fisheries and see what I can learn.
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I read a great perspective in Fish magazine about this issue. I was all for opening Hawaii again but after reading it, I think the local community should decide for themselves whether collecting for the ornamental fish trade is okay, both culturally and for ecological reasons. So if it opens or closes forever, as long as the primary stakeholders are happy, I’m happy.
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
Worth a buy for anyone in the hobby or who likes fish/fishing.
Fish- A literary celebration of scale and fin - Practical Fishkeeping
Habitats and history, conservation and culture, art appreciation, current affairs and cooking, Fish contains all of this and more. For anyone with a passing interest in the piscine world — angler, aquarium hobbyist, even the lay natural history fan — Fish offers in-depth stories that are...
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
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I’m just jumping in to make a quick comment, it seems a lot of people are getting hemmed up on the perceived death rate vs the less than 1% that Kona is quoting. I believe what’s happening is wording. Kona is stating less than 1% death rate collection to retail. Even though that is specific to Hawaii, I think, nowadays, that number is semi-realistic to all other places that collect as well due to improving collection and husbandry practices.
That said, I think some people are thinking the old school “dynamite” collection while others are looking at death in retail tanks.
However, once at retail, Konas 1% figure no longer would apply based on my understanding of the wording. The study ended on the fish making it to retail. The difference being that once at retail is when many fish perish due to sickness, shipping delays, etc and then at the hobbiest level due to inexperience, ignorance, or sickness. I suppose it also depends on the meaning of “retail”. Is retail my LFS or simply making it to the wholesaler here in the states or other countries?
I am curious about the study as well and hope to get to read it once it’s posted.
That said, I think some people are thinking the old school “dynamite” collection while others are looking at death in retail tanks.
However, once at retail, Konas 1% figure no longer would apply based on my understanding of the wording. The study ended on the fish making it to retail. The difference being that once at retail is when many fish perish due to sickness, shipping delays, etc and then at the hobbiest level due to inexperience, ignorance, or sickness. I suppose it also depends on the meaning of “retail”. Is retail my LFS or simply making it to the wholesaler here in the states or other countries?
I am curious about the study as well and hope to get to read it once it’s posted.
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Kona Diver
Active Member
I am referring to point of collection, to organism arriving at mainland USA. What happens in the hobbyist tanks hasn’t been studied that I’m aware of.
TBH, this topic while interesting isn’t the central point of why I’m posting. I’m not here to argue the morality of fish living or dying whether they’re collected or raised in captivity. Fish live and die and the hobby/industry should strive to minimize the loss wherever possible
my main reason I’m here is to discuss the future of the Hawaiian fishery, the scientific review known as HEPA, and the management plan that’s been in place for twenty years. What happens downstream meaning after it’s left Hawaii, is a whole other topic.
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Kona Diver
Active Member
Agreed. The primary stakeholders/community support the fishery. The management plan was designed and vetted with various local stakeholders, Hawaiians and local environmental groups through the West Hawaii Fishery Council. This was an outgrowth of Act 306 which mandated the development of a management plan.I read a great perspective in Fish magazine about this issue. I was all for opening Hawaii again but after reading it, I think the local community should decide for themselves whether collecting for the ornamental fish trade is okay, both culturally and for ecological reasons. So if it opens or closes forever, as long as the primary stakeholders are happy, I’m happy.
Worth a buy for anyone in the hobby or who likes fish/fishing.Fish- A literary celebration of scale and fin - Practical Fishkeeping
Habitats and history, conservation and culture, art appreciation, current affairs and cooking, Fish contains all of this and more. For anyone with a passing interest in the piscine world — angler, aquarium hobbyist, even the lay natural history fan — Fish offers in-depth stories that are...
What started this moratorium was a court ruling by a non local, international environmental group called earth justice. They worked under the direction of a smaller environmental group called for the fishes(based on another island) to overturn what our community decided on and supported. Our interests in west Hawaii have literally been dictated by outside entities that aren’t even from here and they accomplished this with big corporate dollars funneled through NGOs.
ill have a look at your link but what I stated above is what actually transpired
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Kona Diver
Active Member
Here is what Tina Owens of the Lost Fish Coalition in Kailua-Kona has to say about the fishery and outsiders dictating to the people of West Hawaii. Keep in mind, Tina used to be the biggest critic until community based management was achieved and a strong working relationship with the fishers themselves. A respectful relationship between the two groups was established and it really is an example of a problem being solved and middle ground being achieved:
Tina Owens executive director of the LOST FISH Coalition, Member West Hawaii Fisheries Council says:
A great deal of the “sky is falling” news you’ve heard about the reef recently is just plain not true.
Try giving credit to the thousands of volunteer hours given by your neighbors to the West Hawaii Fisheries Council to get the gains you are now free to enjoy. (done with the help of Aquarium Fishermen on the council who agreed to the laws)
Lost Fish Coalition, through the venue of the West Hawaii Fisheries Council, has been working with many stakeholders to get a reasonable settlement to the long-standing problem of the aquarium industry harvest. In almost 16 years, we have accomplished the following management actions:
• We have 55-plus miles of coastline where reef fish cannot be taken. These areas allow the fish to grow large enough to be very successful breeders. These areas — Fish Replenishment Areas — are the nurseries for the reef fish to spread out to the rest of the reefs.
Thanks to these measures, West Hawaii has more fish than most every other widely accessed reef in the state, especially the beautiful ornamentals that give tourists and residents so much delight. If someone says that nothing has been done in West Hawaii, they are either lying, unaware or are being duped by someone else’s lies about the situation. There are a few “outsiders,” by which I mean people who don’t live here, who have decided that West Hawaii doesn’t know what it’s doing. This group, headed by Maui resident Robert Wintner, and Wintner’s frontman Rene Umberger, decided it was going to be the ones to get aquarium collecting banned, to make themselves the “rescuers of the reef.”
Clearly if the goal is to get rid of the industry and management prevents that goal being reached, then discrediting the benefits and successes of management would seem the only way left to go. And so they have taken that path.
They have held community meetings and displayed a lot of false or twisted data, quoting from papers outdated by more than 15 years, and “re-interpreting” data from scientific papers. They have been telling people that “there are no fish left,” which is patently untrue. I once had a woman tell me with great passion and assurance that there are no fish left anywhere in West Hawaii. I asked her why she thought that, and she replied that everyone knew it. I asked if she swam in the ocean. No. Did she dive? No. Did she know anything about the management strategies in place? No. She had, however, just come from an “information session” in which she heard these things from Wintner’s frontman Rene Umberger.
Which brings me back to the wide-screen TV. The TV runs a 90-minute loop of undisturbed, natural activity of fish on the reef. Apparently, the footage was filmed on West Hawaii reefs. The article states: “Wintner praised the videos. ‘It shows what abundance looks like,’ Wintner said.”
At least he got that right.
~ Tina Owens, executive director of the LOST FISH Coalition, Member West Hawaii Fisheries Council and resident of Kailua-Kona.
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Kona Diver
Active Member
Here is testimony of Emily Munday citing her research. My memory was a bit fuzzy since it was ten years ago. The study focused on the capture and surfacing methods of yellow tang in west Hawaii and a secondary part that focused on the holding and shipping of sixty yellow tangs which were received at the Hatfield Marine science center. Mortality was ZERO. Not 1%.
a colleague of mine will be forwarding her masters research paper this weekend and I’ll post it here.
Emily Munday's Testimony
November 17, 2012
Re: Testimony in Opposition to Bill 318
Aloha County Council Members,
I am writing in opposition to Bill 318 regarding the treatment of aquarium life.
For my master’s research at Washington State University, I studied the West Hawaii aquarium trade from 2010-2012. Part of my study focused on holding and transport of live yellow tang in the West Hawaii aquarium trade.
My research on fish holding and transport indicated that the practices implemented by Hawaiian fish exporters do not cause mortality in yellow tang. In June of 2012, I collaborated with fishers and exporters in Kona, and caught 60 yellow tang from the reef, held them in a working export facility, and shipped them from Kona, HI to Portland, OR. The fish were then transported to the Hatfield Marine Science Center in Newport, OR where they resided for 6 months. My study shows 100% survival rate of these tangs during collection, holding in the export facility, air transport, and after a 6-month holding period. In fact, the fish have now become part of an exhibit at the Hatfield Marine Science Center about sustainability in the aquarium trade and I have received no reports of mortality after 2.5 years.
a colleague of mine will be forwarding her masters research paper this weekend and I’ll post it here.
Emily Munday's Testimony
November 17, 2012
Re: Testimony in Opposition to Bill 318
Aloha County Council Members,
I am writing in opposition to Bill 318 regarding the treatment of aquarium life.
For my master’s research at Washington State University, I studied the West Hawaii aquarium trade from 2010-2012. Part of my study focused on holding and transport of live yellow tang in the West Hawaii aquarium trade.
My research on fish holding and transport indicated that the practices implemented by Hawaiian fish exporters do not cause mortality in yellow tang. In June of 2012, I collaborated with fishers and exporters in Kona, and caught 60 yellow tang from the reef, held them in a working export facility, and shipped them from Kona, HI to Portland, OR. The fish were then transported to the Hatfield Marine Science Center in Newport, OR where they resided for 6 months. My study shows 100% survival rate of these tangs during collection, holding in the export facility, air transport, and after a 6-month holding period. In fact, the fish have now become part of an exhibit at the Hatfield Marine Science Center about sustainability in the aquarium trade and I have received no reports of mortality after 2.5 years.
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