Is Marine Pure effective at reducing nitrates? We learn some valuable lessons. | BRStv Investigates

jason2459 · May 29, 2017

schooncw said:
So, I have a relatively new 120, heavily stocked and with a massive amount of live rock, with some very large pieces. I put a Brightwell Xport N03 dimpled brick in my sump, at the bottom, at the end of February. I did NOT seed the brick and I have not seen any positive results re nitrate reduction. I would think that 12 weeks or so, would have been sufficient time to cultivate nitrate gobbling bacteria but that has not been the case.
It is a different animal than the Marinepure-I believe better- and find it baffling that it has not worked yet; perhaps it needs more time? Am tempted to get another brick and this time, seed it.

If you have a massive amount of live rock there's a very good chance adding more surface area is not the answer. Seeding the bricks is not necessary IMO.

schooncw · May 30, 2017

jason2459 said:
If you have a massive amount of live rock there's a very good chance adding more surface area is not the answer. Seeding the bricks is not necessary IMO.

About 1/2 the rock in my tank was brought over from an existing system and I put another 53 pounds in when I got this 120 up in January. I would have thought that the rock itself, would have developed enough anaerobic bacteria to keep nitrates down by now but this is not the case. Why do you feel if I introduce another brick to my tank it will not make a positive difference?
I will post a pic of the tank and as you will see, it prob has too much live rock!

Brew12 · May 30, 2017

schooncw said:
About 1/2 the rock in my tank was brought over from an existing system and I put another 53 pounds in when I got this 120 up in January. I would have thought that the rock itself, would have developed enough anaerobic bacteria to keep nitrates down by now but this is not the case. Why do you feel if I introduce another brick to my tank it will not make a positive difference?
I will post a pic of the tank and as you will see, it prob has too much live rock!

Not to take this down a rabbit hole, but live rock is a tricky thing once it ages. As the pores in the rock get filled with detritus, algae and/or covered with coralline algae, it reduces the surface area available for nitrifying bacteria and blocks the low flow of water needed for anaerobic activity. To get nitrate reduction via anaerobic bacteria you need to have low enough flow so that the oxygen is stripped out of the water without blocking the flow completely.
Using bricks in a low flow area of a sump gives a much more consistent and controllable area for an anaerobic zone to be created.

jason2459 · May 30, 2017

If you already have a sufficient amount of surface area adding more wont help. Looking at your picture it looks great. Do you just have high nitrates? How high?

High nitrates are not necessarily a problem. If there's algae problems then they may want to be reduced but not to undetectable levels IMO.

schooncw · May 30, 2017

jason2459 said:
If you already have a sufficient amount of surface area adding more wont help. Looking at your picture it looks great. Do you just have high nitrates? How high?

High nitrates are not necessarily a problem. If there's algae problems then they may want to be reduced but not to undetectable levels IMO.

My Nitrates are around 50ppm and I have no other issues. No undesirable algae and all other parameters are fine.

jason2459 · May 30, 2017

schooncw said:
My Nitrates are around 50ppm and I have no other issues. No undesirable algae and all other parameters are fine.

Then I would say you don't have a nitrate issue. You just have elevated nitrates. I would not worry about it so much. PaulB's tank commonly runs around that level or higher. My 20 gallon with soft corals, a couple fish, and a mantis has been running 50-100 mg/L and phosphates over 3.0 for about a year now. No algae issues seen.

I would try and reduce them but I wouldn't fight to do so. If your tank is leveled off there and doing great then perfect.

klp · May 30, 2017

Start a new system with nothing but a hermit crab and a food source, sand and light in a 20 gallon or so tank. Depending on the strength of the light the nitrates will fall to zero in 6 weeks or less due to algae growth. I understand the food source was greater in the experiment but I am talking principle here as I have seen it.

I suggest using blacked out tanks either in whole the next time or mirror them with duplicate tanks as controls. I think you will find the lighted tanks are the reason your 14 week results were virtually the same due t

randyBRS said:
Hey guys!

The time has come to reveal the results of the Marine Pure test! As the thread title alludes to, we ran into some speed bumps during this test, but we still walked away with some eye opening results.

Let us know what you think!

klp · May 30, 2017

due to algae growth

klp · May 30, 2017

If you used a deep sand bed as suggested I believe takes a while for it to kick in as far as nitrates go, possibly nitrites as well in a blacked out tank. I think the flaw in your tests is lighting.

klp · May 30, 2017

I would also like to see 2 double stacked Marine Pure to better simulate a deep sand bed as 4" is minimal. I think the tests should run at least 6 months.

Scott.h · May 30, 2017

I have two big blocks in each of my three systems. That said, I'd never use them again without curing them in saltwater for at least a few months first. Triton tests show they absolutely do leach aluminum, and no matter what anyone says, it does cause problems. Eventually it slows down and gets removed with water changes.. possibly joins with organic molecules and gets removed with gfo, but I've beat my head against a wall for a long time over this. In hind sight I'd bet my tank what I witnessed was related to these blocks. No need for brs to investigate that, they know it too. I bet that's why during their 52 weeks of reefing they removed several plates and did a 100% water change! It's in the footage about the same time frame it should have caused the underlined issue. Witnessed it myself. 3 times.

pfoxgrover · May 30, 2017

Ryanbrs said:
I saved some water from each tank and the triton tests arrived Friday. Hopefully we will see in a few weeks

Awesome! You guys are the best!

saltyhog · May 30, 2017

Scott.h said:
I have two big blocks in each of my three systems. That said, I'd never use them again without curing them in saltwater for at least a few months first. Triton tests show they absolutely do leach aluminum, and no matter what anyone says, it does cause problems. Eventually it slows down and gets removed with water changes.. possibly joins with organic molecules and gets removed with gfo, but I've beat my head against a wall for a long time over this. In hind sight I'd bet my tank what I witnessed was related to these blocks. No need for brs to investigate that, they know it too. I bet that's why during their 52 weeks of reefing they removed several plates and did a 100% water change! It's in the footage about the same time frame it should have caused the underlined issue. Witnessed it myself. 3 times.

That is so weird. I had two 4x4x8 blocks in my sump for a year and my Triton test did not show elevated aluminum (and I wasn't running GFO at the time). Strange how some systems do seem to show elevated levels and others don't.

Scott.h · May 30, 2017

@saltyhog Did you test after they had been running for a month or so? How much total water volume and what is your water change schedule?

saltyhog · May 30, 2017

No I didn't test until they had been in about 9 months. Total water volume is 160 gallons and I do 25 gallon water changes every 3 weeks or so.

I still have one of the Murine Pure blocks but gave the other to a friend to seed his tank. I replaced it with two Brightwell NO3 bricks.

I never saw any change in nitrates with the Marine Pure but I have seen some since I added the Brightwell bricks.

Forsaken77 · May 31, 2017

I actually spoke with the head of Marine Pure or their head R&D guy about the aluminum issue and they wanted the results to come from them and me not say anything about it, but this was about a year ago and they haven't addressed it themselves so I'll tell you what I remember from the emails.

They acknowledged that they heard the rumor about aluminum and setup their own tests with a control and 4 separate setups using all Marine Pure products. They gave me the results of all 4 tests using the Triton test but I don't have them anymore because I didn't plan on sharing the info..

Anyway, each test measured a very small increase in Aluminum and each were different, even the control, but the results were so small that it wouldn't make an impact on anything.

I can't remember this next part exactly, but it's either one of the following or both... They said the reason why it only shows up using the Triton test is because Triton measures so low of levels that a normal test kit wouldn't pick up because it's not enough to impact anything, AND/OR, they said that the Triton test measures all forms of Aluminum, not just the form in their products, and could come from the source water or other source, but that the product was positively safe to use from their testing results and they weren't even sure how the rumor got started that the Aluminum was coming from their items in the first place.

I wish I still had the email so I could just post it. But they assured me it was absolutely safe to use. And this wasn't just some customer service person. It was somebody that is up the chain.

Scott.h · May 31, 2017

saltyhog said:
No I didn't test until they had been in about 9 months. Total water volume is 160 gallons and I do 25 gallon water changes every 3 weeks or so.

I still have one of the Murine Pure blocks but gave the other to a friend to seed his tank. I replaced it with two Brightwell NO3 bricks.

I never saw any change in nitrates with the Marine Pure but I have seen some since I added the Brightwell bricks.

At 9 months the aluminum should be leached out. I lost a few things in my softie tank, but luckily I had them fragged in another system and restocked. Everything is healthy again and those blocks are about a year old. My last block in another system was added 6 months ago and I have a triton test currently out so I'm anticipating the results. I think 6 months should be fine.

Forsaken77 said:
I actually spoke with the head of Marine Pure or their head R&D guy about the aluminum issue and they wanted the results to come from them and me not say anything about it, but this was about a year ago and they haven't addressed it themselves so I'll tell you what I remember from the emails.

They acknowledged that they heard the rumor about aluminum and setup their own tests with a control and 4 separate setups using all Marine Pure products. They gave me the results of all 4 tests using the Triton test but I don't have them anymore because I didn't plan on sharing the info..

Anyway, each test measured a very small increase in Aluminum and each were different, even the control, but the results were so small that it wouldn't make an impact on anything.

I can't remember this next part exactly, but it's either one of the following or both... They said the reason why it only shows up using the Triton test is because Triton measures so low of levels that a normal test kit wouldn't pick up because it's not enough to impact anything, AND/OR, they said that the Triton test measures all forms of Aluminum, not just the form in their products, and could come from the source water or other source, but that the product was positively safe to use from their testing results and they weren't even sure how the rumor got started that the Aluminum was coming from their items in the first place.

I wish I still had the email so I could just post it. But they assured me it was absolutely safe to use. And this wasn't just some customer service person. It wa somebody that is up the chain.

Of course they said that. They can't say otherwise or everyone would get freaked out and not buy them. I don't think they are a bad product, I just think they need to be cured for 3-6 months before use, which is a pain. And for people's sake I think they need to disclose this.

I talked to a propagator before we knew about this issue. They have 8 systems 200 gal each. Added 5 blocks each to two systems. They about lost their softie tank. Only a problem in those two tanks. The other 6 were fine. Couldn't tell why at first. Triton test showed aluminum off the charts. Removed, water change, problem instantly gone. Marine pure refunded thier money, as they got them direct, but in agreement to stay off the forums. That was a few years ago, before we all started figuring it out on our own. Like I said, I still have 6 blocks in my system, but went through problems getting through it. I few lost corals and lots of money in extra water changes. Cure them first.

jason2459 · May 31, 2017

@Forsaken77 Cermedia posted it here in their blog and there's conflicting information vs what brightwell says as well. Basically marketing hype vs marketing hype. One or both of them are wrong.

http://www.cermedia.com/blog.php

I have upped my testing and have several containers going now. It is not a quick test.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...-leach-lets-guess.247034/page-20#post-3786298

@Scott.h I'm still waiting for more results to come back so wont post any numbers yet but of the past year or so of using the blocks the charting of Al and the reactions and look of health of my fiji leather coral has been interesting.

There was a pH comment above vs the fiji and the fiji reacted very negatively before as well as after a single pH drop in the middle of the night. I attribute that pH drop to a sudden increase in bacteria. The blocks are also in an area I carbon dose. I also showed I could reproduce the same results by dumping in a lot of bacteria manually at once. Fiji had no negative reaction to that test and pH drop. I do not think that single pH drop was a negative thing and just the opposite. Shows that I was limited in surface area and that the blocks do provide a very effective home for bacteria.

I attributed the initial very bad reaction to fines from the block even though I had soaked and rinsed. But any crack or break makes the media fall apart easily in that area. Brightwells are the same. Both are ceramics.

My sponges I do not know what to attribute their downfall too. They receeded to nothing in my tank over the year starting with adding the blocks. Only just recently have I noticed a small amount of them coming back in different areas. My huge growth that was showing the "gapping" is entirely gone. Nothing at all to do with a single middle of the night pH drop.

siggy · May 31, 2017

My tank is just under 2 months old with 2 gallons marine-pur spheres in the sump , time to test, who test's in the U.S. or gets the quickest results

Ryanbrs · May 31, 2017

Well, we sent out all four samples to Triton today. One plate, one block, one box of balls and one control. Since all these tanks started with the same water source, zero water changes and had almost identical inputs of just top off and mysis, I think we will get to the bottom of one portion of this discussion for sure. Does it add aluminum measurable by Triton? If it does I think the question evolves. Is it a toxic form and at what level does it matter. I have to say, the volume of "successful" reef tanks using this type of media seems to have hit a critical mass where the measurable impact is certainly worthy of a larger conversation.

We are curing some blocks for a different test. I will make sure we send in samples of the cured blocks as well to give another window of how they perform in a more controlled environment than a standard reef tank. I am certain there is a larger story going on here which is begging for more exploration : )