Is this the state of captive bred marine fish?

Crabs McJones · Jul 8, 2019

Let's please keep the thread on topic. Off topic comments from here on out will be removed.
Thank you

Crabs

Ike · Jul 8, 2019

In all seriousness, we need people to buy these overly expensive fish to encourage them to keep going and learn how to be more efficient. I'd suspect there are a lot of people willing to pay double or triple the typical price and it will be tougher to get there if they can't sell enough overpriced fish early on.

Potatohead · Jul 8, 2019

Seems twice a week there’s a new thread on R2R about someone worrying how someone else spends their money. Kind of weird.

alton · Jul 9, 2019

https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/6840/gigas-clam-aquacultured-ora?pcatid=6840&c=3352+3355+6840
When was the last time you saw one of these brought in from the wild?

alton · Jul 9, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Funny I just looked at their site - every other angel is priced smaller<larger<XL. That must be because of where they got those particular specimens (i.e. the cost). The butterflies are also priced Small<large<XL. So - I think you found a couple exceptions to the rule - But as I mentioned in another post - if they happened to get a good deal on one - it could be the reason that the fish are differently priced (for example - I dont think they have 5 of each size of conspic angels 'in stock'. I think they are WYSIWYG

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...B67015D1B272DF1C473CB67015D1B272DF1&FORM=VIRE

MnFish1 · Jul 9, 2019

Ike said:
In all seriousness, we need people to buy these overly expensive fish to encourage them to keep going and learn how to be more efficient. I'd suspect there are a lot of people willing to pay double or triple the typical price and it will be tougher to get there if they can't sell enough overpriced fish early on.

I disagree. I don't feel that its up to 'someone else' to spend 'double or triple' to help someone else's agenda. I.e. - I have nothing against captive breeding (see below) - but I also don't believe it will be the panacea that everyone is thinking. (thats my opinion - I'm not criticizing those that have a different opinion).

Though I have nothing against captive breeding - I see problems in the future (maybe as bad or worse for the hobby than natural collection) - first disease - these fish will have no specific immunity against pathogens - If exposed - for whatever reason - it will be a problem. Second - Its more common that when something is 'banned from being imported' - its also banned from being sold - so if a certain coral/fish is banned for import - it won't matter that they can be captive bred. Third - inbreeding - may lead to inferior strains and other problems.

I would rather donate $800 to a group that is using sustainable fishing techniques - and lobbying against using cyanide and other questionable methods - rather than supporting the breeding of a couple fish with crazy prices. Note - just my feeling - I'm sure others feel differently - its an interesting discussion.

ReeferReefer · Jul 9, 2019

MnFish1 said:
I disagree. I don't feel that its up to 'someone else' to spend 'double or triple' to help someone else's agenda. I.e. - I have nothing against captive breeding (see below) - but I also don't believe it will be the panacea that everyone is thinking. (thats my opinion - I'm not criticizing those that have a different opinion).

Though I have nothing against captive breeding - I see problems in the future (maybe as bad or worse for the hobby than natural collection) - first disease - these fish will have no specific immunity against pathogens - If exposed - for whatever reason - it will be a problem. Second - Its more common that when something is 'banned from being imported' - its also banned from being sold - so if a certain coral/fish is banned for import - it won't matter that they can be captive bred. Third - inbreeding - may lead to inferior strains and other problems.

I would rather donate $800 to a group that is using sustainable fishing techniques - and lobbying against using cyanide and other questionable methods - rather than supporting the breeding of a couple fish with crazy prices. Note - just my feeling - I'm sure others feel differently - its an interesting discussion.

Since it seems that people are paying these high prices, its clear some people feel differently.

It's a nice idea to donate to sustainable fishing, although I have no idea where to go for something like that.

MnFish1 · Jul 9, 2019

ReeferReefer said:
Since it seems that people are paying these high prices, its clear some people feel differently.

It's a nice idea to donate to sustainable fishing, although I have no idea where to go for something like that.

Well at least people are putting them up for sale for 'higher prices'. whether they are being bought is another question... And I have no problem with it (I have a couple captive bred designer clowns and there were about 2/3 higher than others).

Katrina71 · Jul 9, 2019

I personally have been to a hatchery where new things are being captive bred. I did ask about the tolerance to things they haven't been exposed to. There are some things in the works dealing with that. It is an exciting prospect for our future.

alton · Jul 9, 2019

Normally captive bred bring double the wild caught price, not sure where the eight times the cost in the purple tang sale came from? NYA has them for $69 + Shipping. And Purple Tangs are not rare by any means. Maybe they just wanted to see if the market would bite?

Biokabe · Jul 9, 2019

alton said:
Normally captive bred bring double the wild caught price, not sure where the eight times the cost in the purple tang sale came from? NYA has them for $69 + Shipping. And Purple Tangs are not rare by any means. Maybe they just wanted to see if the market would bite?

A well-established captive-bred fish - clowns, dottybacks, banggai cardinals, etc. - may only be double the cost. Those specimens have proven their viability and been through enough production cycles that the cost of developing the broodstock has already been paid. The only costs the producer needs to recoup are the maintenance costs - feeding, electricity, etc, allowing them to lower the price of the resulting fish.

Purple tangs are very new to captive breeding, and up until now, the producers have only sunk costs into developing the breeding program; they haven't been able to bring in any revenue to pay for everything that went into developing a viable, sellable specimen. It's not unreasonable for those initial specimens to be many times more expensive than a wild-caught individual. Early adopters always pay more for the privilege of being first.

Once the market proves itself and the producers can recoup their initial costs, prices will likely come down.

MnFish1 · Jul 9, 2019

Biokabe said:
A well-established captive-bred fish - clowns, dottybacks, banggai cardinals, etc. - may only be double the cost. Those specimens have proven their viability and been through enough production cycles that the cost of developing the broodstock has already been paid. The only costs the producer needs to recoup are the maintenance costs - feeding, electricity, etc, allowing them to lower the price of the resulting fish.

Purple tangs are very new to captive breeding, and up until now, the producers have only sunk costs into developing the breeding program; they haven't been able to bring in any revenue to pay for everything that went into developing a viable, sellable specimen. It's not unreasonable for those initial specimens to be many times more expensive than a wild-caught individual. Early adopters always pay more for the privilege of being first.

Once the market proves itself and the producers can recoup their initial costs, prices will likely come down.

This I agree with - but what 'privilege' are they paying for? (i.e. what does a captive bred tang bring to the table that a wild caught one does not have)

Silver14SS · Jul 9, 2019

MnFish1 said:
This I agree with - but what 'privilege' are they paying for? (i.e. what does a captive bred tang bring to the table that a wild caught one does not have)

They said being first to have one is the privilege, that's important to some people. Same reason some pay a dealer markup for the latest car, line up for phones the day of release, pay a premium for the latest gaming console or water tester on eBay.

Hopefully it's about what a captive bred animal doesn't bring - ideally no diseases, pests, parasites, etc. Assuming there is no cross contamination with carriers, what issues can spontaneously appear in a fish that is not carrying the undesirable issue?

MnFish1 · Jul 9, 2019

Silver14SS said:
They said being first to have one is the privilege, that's important to some people. Same reason some pay a dealer markup for the latest car, line up for phones the day of release, pay a premium for the latest gaming console or water tester on eBay.

Hopefully it's about what a captive bred animal doesn't bring - ideally no diseases, pests, parasites, etc. Assuming there is no cross contamination with carriers, what issues can spontaneously appear in a fish that is not carrying the undesirable issue?

Well - if you have a perfectly maintained tank - with nothing thats 'wild' theoretically - it should be no problem. If you add one frag that has a CI encysted on it - what will happen? What happens if there are parasites in your tank - and you add an 800/600$ fish? (or want to add a wild coral 6 months later - or a wild fish)?

Silver14SS · Jul 9, 2019

My guess is that if someone is willing to pay $799 for this captive bred fish instead of $69 for the wild caught, it is specifically due to that reason - they don't have anything wild. It makes no sense to me to pay such a premium for a captive bred animal to then put it in a tank with wild caught animals.

MnFish1 · Jul 9, 2019

Silver14SS said:
My guess is that if someone is willing to pay $799 for this captive bred fish instead of $69 for the wild caught, it is specifically due to that reason - they don't have anything wild. It makes no sense to me to pay such a premium for a captive bred animal to then put it in a tank with wild caught animals.

Right - which to me MIGHT significantly lower the appeal of captive raised fish.

MnFish1 · Jul 10, 2019

Mastiffsrule said:
I’m thinking the same of yours. I think there could be a much better way to communicate, unless you were joking, than I apologize

Its funny - on the further end of the spectrum, PETA feels that keeping all aquaria is 'not environmentally friendly - nor ethical'. So - they would not support 'captive breeding'. I would suggest as did @Hemmdog that people pretending that captive breeding is 'the only solution' will be surprised 20 years from now. At that point - captive breeding and keeping fish in general will probably be extremely restricted - if allowed at all. Look at the movement to close zoos in this country.

Ike · Jul 10, 2019

MnFish1 said:
I disagree. I don't feel that its up to 'someone else' to spend 'double or triple' to help someone else's agenda. I.e. - I have nothing against captive breeding (see below) - but I also don't believe it will be the panacea that everyone is thinking. (thats my opinion - I'm not criticizing those that have a different opinion).

Though I have nothing against captive breeding - I see problems in the future (maybe as bad or worse for the hobby than natural collection) - first disease - these fish will have no specific immunity against pathogens - If exposed - for whatever reason - it will be a problem. Second - Its more common that when something is 'banned from being imported' - its also banned from being sold - so if a certain coral/fish is banned for import - it won't matter that they can be captive bred. Third - inbreeding - may lead to inferior strains and other problems.

I would rather donate $800 to a group that is using sustainable fishing techniques - and lobbying against using cyanide and other questionable methods - rather than supporting the breeding of a couple of fish with crazy prices. Note - just my feeling - I'm sure others feel differently - its an interesting discussion.

Disagree all you like, but early adopters willing to pay more to be the first ones are pretty crucial for most innovative businesses to survive early on. You're probably not an early adopter, but I can assure you that you've benefitted from others doing so. As more and more people buy, costs almost always come down.

Also, can you show me some research that shows captive bred marine fish (or freshater) are any more likely to get pathogens than wild caught specimens? Your argument about fish being banned is basically a slippery slope and I don't see much reason to believe that captive bred fish would be banned if imports are banned. There are plenty of examples of things that are bred in captivity but not allowed to be collected. Plenty of corals alone as examples! Ther inbreeding... another slippery slope, and one that doesn't seem to be a problem in almost every captive bred fish out there.

Mastiffsrule · Jul 10, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Its funny - on the further end of the spectrum, PETA feels that keeping all aquaria is 'not environmentally friendly - nor ethical'. So - they would not support 'captive breeding'. I would suggest as did @Hemmdog that people pretending that captive breeding is 'the only solution' will be surprised 20 years from now. At that point - captive breeding and keeping fish in general will probably be extremely restricted - if allowed at all. Look at the movement to close zoos in this country.

What’s the good word tonight.
I agree, I am just not sure how my comment came into play?