Is this the state of captive bred marine fish?

[lakai]

I am also interested in the survivability of some of these fish that aren't yet available in captive bred form. I'm hoping it's not 1 in 7000 ( And I know you were just throwing a number out) but it's probably not too far off from that.

That number is from University of Florida Aquaculture research facility's attempt at breeding hippo tangs in captivity. They started with 3 spawns with 35k eggs. Only 5 survived past 60 days making it 1 in 7000 or a s 0.01% survival rate. It is difficult to find any other numbers regarding captive breeding of any tangs as there is no transparency.

 

[richiero]

Deff not worth close to 800 dollars but places will rip off the consumer in this new market and it very sad

 

[richiero]

Deff not worth close to 800 dollars but places will rip off the consumer in this new market and it very sad

 

[richiero]

Deff not worth close to 800 dollars but places will rip off the consumer in this new market and it very sad

 

[richiero]

Deff not worth close to 800 dollars but places will rip off the consumer in this new market and it very sad

 

[MnFish1]

Just some thoughts on this as we only sell captive bred fish. We do believe that there are sustainable fisheries, but those only have a small selection of fish that the hobby desires.

I think the captive bred wave of fish will follow the technology adaption curve pretty closely. Captive breeding these pelagic spawners is hard (and it is a relatively new technology). A good chunk of change is spent on broodstock, larvae nutrition, R&D, labor, etc.

As someone mentioned earlier with the TV analogy, the first flatscreen TV in 1997 was Philips/Fujitsu Flat Plasma TV: $22,924 (https://www.cnet.com/news/are-tvs-really-cheaper-than-ever-we-go-back-a-few-decades-to-see/).

It was UGLY, expensive, poor resolution (compared to modern TV's) and likely had a bunch of issues in the end product (and manufacturing process). But its the small, select group of people that bought these TV's that helped pave (and paid) the way towards putting more resources, engineers, etc on the job of making more of these.


For some fun reading that draws some parallels between technology adoption and captive bred fish.

Innovators (2.5%) – Innovators are the first individuals to adopt an innovation. Innovators are willing to take risks, youngest in age, have the highest social class, have great financial lucidity, very social and have closest contact to scientific sources and interaction with other innovators. Risk tolerance has them adopting technologies which may ultimately fail. Financial resources help absorb these failures. (Rogers 1962 5th ed, p. 282)
Early Adopters (13.5%) – This is the second fastest category of individuals who adopt an innovation. These individuals have the highest degree of opinion leadership among the other adopter categories. Early adopters are typically younger in age, have a higher social status, have more financial lucidity, advanced education, and are more socially forward than late adopters. More discrete in adoption choices than innovators. Realize judicious choice of adoption will help them maintain central communication position (Rogers 1962 5th ed, p. 283).
Early Majority (34%) – Individuals in this category adopt an innovation after a varying degree of time. This time of adoption is significantly longer than the innovators and early adopters. Early Majority tend to be slower in the adoption process, have above average social status, contact with early adopters, and seldom hold positions of opinion leadership in a system (Rogers 1962 5th ed, p. 283)
Late Majority (34%) – Individuals in this category will adopt an innovation after the average member of the society. These individuals approach an innovation with a high degree of skepticism and after the majority of society has adopted the innovation. Late Majority are typically skeptical about an innovation, have below average social status, very little financial lucidity, in contact with others in late majority and early majority, very little opinion leadership.
Laggards (16%) – Individuals in this category are the last to adopt an innovation. Unlike some of the previous categories, individuals in this category show little to no opinion leadership. These individuals typically have an aversion to change-agents and tend to be advanced in age. Laggards typically tend to be focused on “traditions”, likely to have lowest social status, lowest financial fluidity, be oldest of all other adopters, in contact with only family and close friends, very little to no opinion leadership.


Source: https://ondigitalmarketing.com/learn/odm/foundations/5-customer-segments-technology-adoption/

Excellent post...

 

[richiero]

A purple tang isn’t even close to being worth 800 even captive. But companies will rip people off in this new climate in our hobby.

 

[MnFish1]

Just some thoughts on this as we only sell captive bred fish. We do believe that there are sustainable fisheries, but those only have a small selection of fish that the hobby desires.

I think the captive bred wave of fish will follow the technology adaption curve pretty closely. Captive breeding these pelagic spawners is hard (and it is a relatively new technology). A good chunk of change is spent on broodstock, larvae nutrition, R&D, labor, etc.

As someone mentioned earlier with the TV analogy, the first flatscreen TV in 1997 was Philips/Fujitsu Flat Plasma TV: $22,924 (https://www.cnet.com/news/are-tvs-really-cheaper-than-ever-we-go-back-a-few-decades-to-see/).

It was UGLY, expensive, poor resolution (compared to modern TV's) and likely had a bunch of issues in the end product (and manufacturing process). But its the small, select group of people that bought these TV's that helped pave (and paid) the way towards putting more resources, engineers, etc on the job of making more of these.


For some fun reading that draws some parallels between technology adoption and captive bred fish.

Innovators (2.5%) – Innovators are the first individuals to adopt an innovation. Innovators are willing to take risks, youngest in age, have the highest social class, have great financial lucidity, very social and have closest contact to scientific sources and interaction with other innovators. Risk tolerance has them adopting technologies which may ultimately fail. Financial resources help absorb these failures. (Rogers 1962 5th ed, p. 282)
Early Adopters (13.5%) – This is the second fastest category of individuals who adopt an innovation. These individuals have the highest degree of opinion leadership among the other adopter categories. Early adopters are typically younger in age, have a higher social status, have more financial lucidity, advanced education, and are more socially forward than late adopters. More discrete in adoption choices than innovators. Realize judicious choice of adoption will help them maintain central communication position (Rogers 1962 5th ed, p. 283).
Early Majority (34%) – Individuals in this category adopt an innovation after a varying degree of time. This time of adoption is significantly longer than the innovators and early adopters. Early Majority tend to be slower in the adoption process, have above average social status, contact with early adopters, and seldom hold positions of opinion leadership in a system (Rogers 1962 5th ed, p. 283)
Late Majority (34%) – Individuals in this category will adopt an innovation after the average member of the society. These individuals approach an innovation with a high degree of skepticism and after the majority of society has adopted the innovation. Late Majority are typically skeptical about an innovation, have below average social status, very little financial lucidity, in contact with others in late majority and early majority, very little opinion leadership.
Laggards (16%) – Individuals in this category are the last to adopt an innovation. Unlike some of the previous categories, individuals in this category show little to no opinion leadership. These individuals typically have an aversion to change-agents and tend to be advanced in age. Laggards typically tend to be focused on “traditions”, likely to have lowest social status, lowest financial fluidity, be oldest of all other adopters, in contact with only family and close friends, very little to no opinion leadership.


Source: https://ondigitalmarketing.com/learn/odm/foundations/5-customer-segments-technology-adoption/

Question - do you think that the purple tang fishery is 'today' sustainable? I mean - you can see the pictures of nano tangs being grilled in Hawaii - and sold in fish markets. They are certainly not endangered at this point. That said - If you wait until something is endangered - will breeding in captivity possibly not prove to be able to be done - its an interesting discussion

 

[MnFish1]

A purple tang isn’t even close to being worth 800 even captive. But companies will rip people off in this new climate in our hobby.

They can only rip someone off if they buy one.. BTW - did anyone see how large that tang (which was really pretty) was??

 

[EmdeReef]

Captive breeding, unless done on a massive scale (e.g. clownfish) will usually be more expensive than catching fish (for now).

Simple reason is that the majority of our fish are originating from very poor parts of the world. People who catch those fish get paid cents per fish. Very few fish in the trade are really expensive to catch - such as the deep water species requiring rebreathers etc.this includes gem tangs, some poor guy is probably getting paid 50cents or dollar for the fish some people pay a grand for in the US.

That said, with the bans around the world many will be glad that there are people who invest and support captive breading. In a few years we may not be getting any Hawaiian fish...

I’m not sure why everything regresses to politics and tribalism but it gets old...

This fish is being sold as somewhat of a collector’s item which is very plain from the description. If that’s not your thing, move on...save the outrage for FB and Twitter

For those who are truly interested in learning about what it takes to breed a saltwater fish, which may explain the some of the price tag, check this out:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jwas.12426

 

[AlgaeBarn]

Question - do you think that the purple tang fishery is 'today' sustainable? I mean - you can see the pictures of nano tangs being grilled in Hawaii - and sold in fish markets. They are certainly not endangered at this point. That said - If you wait until something is endangered - will breeding in captivity possibly not prove to be able to be done - its an interesting discussion

Not aware of any purple tang fisheries.

I'm not 100% sure how prevalent tang consumption in Hawaii actually is. I have seen the pictures of achilles tangs on ice and I've heard they are pretty cheap $15/lb (compared to the living fish). As a general rule of thumb, if you are allowed to eat it, you should be allowed to keep it in an aquarium.

 

[Aheinz]

Personally unlike the idea of captive bred for eco systems, less chance of parasites buts there is a point to where it's not cost effective either

 

[vetteguy53081]

Not My money. I know I've spent money Unwisely on ridiculous stuff, but won't be a purple tang !!

 

[Potatohead]

Didn't know I was a hippie because I have captive bred fish in my tank. Ok, I'm down with that.

Yeah dude. Do you even shower?

 

[mnk]

It’s just interesting how defensive some people are. This first offer of CB purple tang clearly isn’t with a commercial purpose, it’s the first introduction of the idea, the possibility and to see if it will be sustainable. The companies that are doing all this research towards being able to breed in captivity these more difficult species, are investing money, and they can’t just keep throwing money into the fire. So yes, the price is high, but there’s things in this hobby with prices much higher than this and we have accepted it with ease. For example Bounce Mushrooms, it’s literally one of the easiest corals who just happen to have bubbles, and yet it’s price tag it’s quite a thing.

 

[Ling_Thing]

Well it’s on sale for $600 lol. And I would assume you would still QT and prophylactic treat with copper?

 

[mwilk19]

Yeah dude. Do you even shower?

Only when I put my hash pipe down long enough to wash. I’ve had a problem with my hash recently. I can’t get the corned beef to light.

 

[Sailfinguy21]

I think you guys got it all wrong... hippie isnt the term.... Its hispter

 

[MnFish1]

Not aware of any purple tang fisheries.

I'm not 100% sure how prevalent tang consumption in Hawaii actually is. I have seen the pictures of achilles tangs on ice and I've heard they are pretty cheap $15/lb (compared to the living fish). As a general rule of thumb, if you are allowed to eat it, you should be allowed to keep it in an aquarium.

Well it’s on sale for $600 lol. And I would assume you would still QT and prophylactic treat with copper?

I believe all of the fish from Algaebarn are captive raised. Do you recommend QT/prophylactic treatment for these fish. I have heard that people do just drop them in - but it never made sense to me - since you may have CI on coral, etc on your tank (unless its been left fallow - or continued no live rock) or?

 

[chefjpaul]

I would never pay that much for a fish myself, but we encourage those that will - do it, so the evolution of captive breeding continues.

As a diver, reef hobbyists, and a chef, with hands on experience in watching our seafood supply dwindle, prices skyrocket, and species becoming unavailable...

This "trend" - hippie ideals, or rather a reality we should all embrace.
Just like anything new, as quantity goes up, prices will equalize and hopefully in a few years we can all have what once was an $800 fish for $150.

Or else it will be a reversal, Wild will be out of touch prices.

 

[TheGreatWave]

You guys are funny. lol

In the day of $500 pumps and $1,500 controller systems you guy fixate on this fish lol.These are "fish" tanks after all.

The guy who pays $800 for a clean renewable fish might also be paying $800 a year for salt, might be paying $500 a month in electricity. Have you seen the price of a big skimmer? Would it be better to buy 8 x $100 fish, or 800 $1 fish?
I tell you one thing a $800 fish will most certainly out last a $800 wavemaker.

These aren't justifications so much as they are perspectives. We shouldn't shame people who have a little more and want to choose a more sustainable/arguably more responsible sources of fish. Hey it's still probably cheaper then trying to catch it yourself.

 

[S&SReef]

Market and demand, something new. The price will drop after demand drops and more captive bred avail. Anyone else remember lightening maroon clowns when they first came out?

 

[DibsOnMcRibs]

I believe all of the fish from Algaebarn are captive raised. Do you recommend QT/prophylactic treatment for these fish. I have heard that people do just drop them in - but it never made sense to me - since you may have CI on coral, etc on your tank (unless its been left fallow - or continued no live rock) or?

Their fish are captive bred