It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[najer]

I am more for the corals but I do have fish including 2 tangs.
I also have never qt'd a fish and I have never had a fish disease.
I am very selective when it comes to buying fish.
I know this has been discussed a few times, there appears to be less of an issue with disease in England / Europe?

 

[atoll]

BTW I have snorkeled and dived on a number of wonderful reefs in the Red Sea and yes I have kept a number of tangs without any major outbreaks of the likes of WS. Purple, yellow, golden eye, scopas, to name but a few and no I have never kept a powder blue but I have had plenty of fish from damsels to royal grammas etc that are prone to WS. In fact I have introduced RGs with WS only for it to disappear within 36 hours. The WS might well still be in my tank along with other parasites there is just no obvious signs of them just healthy disease free fish. Guess we are just lucky then [emoji4]

 

[Cabinetman]

I’ve been following this thread all along. Ick... ick in my opinion is a joke. Ick doesn’t scare me at all. Velvet is a different animal altogether. Flukes too if not recognized and treated. I know I had one of the healthiest looking tanks around. All natural to. I fed my fish excellent diets and used to brag how I could add diseased fish to my tank and they would get better, because they would. Until the day I added a fish with what I though was Ick and all hell broke loose. There’s no way I’d ever recommend that people not worry about qt. Not anymore that’s for sure. I might not copper a fish but I will put it in my qt which is cycled and has rock and is a nice little tank to watch it for a month or so to see if it’s going to break out in anything. If I see velvet I copper the tank. I don’t want that back in my 560 gallon display at all

 

[Mark Gray]

How long should I wait for those flukes and velvet? It's been a while now.

I think you need to wait another 47 years at least

 

[atoll]

I’ve been following this thread all along. Ick... ick in my opinion is a joke. Ick doesn’t scare me at all. Velvet is a different animal altogether. Flukes too if not recognized and treated. I know I had one of the healthiest looking tanks around. All natural to. I fed my fish excellent diets and used to brag how I could add diseased fish to my tank and they would get better, because they would. Until the day I added a fish with what I though was Ick and all hell broke loose. There’s no way I’d ever recommend that people not worry about qt. Not anymore that’s for sure. I might not copper a fish but I will put it in my qt which is cycled and has rock and is a nice little tank to watch it for a month or so to see if it’s going to break out in anything. If I see velvet I copper the tank. I don’t want that back in my 560 gallon display at all

We are not recommending you do what we do and there is more to what we do than you have stated. We are just stating facts as we know them to be with what we do, for how long we have been doing it along with the undeniable success over all those years. You have not come up or anybody else for that matter on a logical explanation as to why we have had successful long term disease free aquariums and that goes for quite a few of us now. Stress is a big factor as well as water quality environment abd food and feeding. There is no luck here I can assure you and even if there was it has surly long run out.

 

[Kmsutows]

"Immunity" or not, mechanical filtration can help lower the number of parasites enough for the fish to fight them off. I feel I feed my fish very well but have been slacking for the past few months on live foods. My hippo tang used to get the occasional few spots and I'd turn on my UV at night for a few days and it wouldn't be seen again for a few months. I recently added an Achilles to my tank (which most of my fish were killed off shortly after an outbreak a year or so ago so I know it was present[no UV at the time]). So far so good on the achillies and i attribute that to the health of the fish and leaving the UV on 24/7 for the ~5 days I've had it.
Paulb uses both ozone and a diatom filter, both shown to kill free floating parasites. It's the combination of built up immunity and mechanical filtration to allow the build up of resistance. That's my take and interpretation of experience.

 

[Mark Gray]

We are not recommending you do what we do and there is more to what we do than you have stated. We are just stating facts as we know them to be with what we do, for how long we have been doing it along with the undeniable success over all those years. You have not come up or anybody else for that matter on a logical explanation as to why we have had successful long term disease free aquariums and that goes for quite a few of us now. Stress is a big factor as well as water quality environment abd food and feeding. There is no luck here I can assure you and even if there was it has surly long run out.

I have also been doing it pretty much this way for around 40 years also just not big on typing have gotten better lately lol. I just started a new tank it has cycled and had a few fish witch were good and heathy feed them live and all kinds of other things. I ordered 3 fish from live aquaria last week 2 looked fine one wrasse for sure had ick and probably fluked but not really sure so I set them all in the tank for a little bit and let them go. The wrasse that came in looking really bad died, but I left him in the tank to gice my worms and thing something tasty to eat, All the other fish are doing great love this hobby don't have time or space for QT myself.

 

[Dogtown]

I keep a powder blue tang and have done so for many years. I have had great success keeping healthy fish but I take my time and do follow conventional QT best practices. Remember that there are hundreds of failures for not QTing over the long run for every one success.

The old saying is that “figures will not lie,” but a new saying is “liars will figure.” It is our duty, as aquarists, to prevent the liar from figuring; in other words, to prevent him from perverting the truth, in the interest of some theory he wishes to establish.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I have to disagree that paul and others sharing their methods and experiences with immunity is reckless.

From reading many of their posts they have very complete systems that require “work” to produce the results they have.

I do not think it is Paul’s fault if a reefer attempts parasite immunity and fails. When the reefer did not follow the protocols that he uses.

I am not a practitioner of this method, i follow this thread for the stories and for insight in how to get my fish to live as long and healthy as theirs. I have changed my feeding regiment from their experiences; i still qt and do not have plans to change that.

But anyone who does should be reading everything posted, what fish they keep what they dont, what and how they feed, and how they filter. Paul’s method is not drop the fish in and pray it lives. If thats what a reefer has read here they should not attempt immunity systems.

 

[Mark Gray]

I have to disagree that paul and others sharing their methods and experiences with immunity is reckless.

From reading many of their posts they have very complete systems that require “work” to produce the results they have.

I do not think it is Paul’s fault if a reefer attempts parasite immunity and fails. When the reefer did not follow the protocols that he uses.

I am not a practitioner of this method, i follow this thread for the stories and for insight in how to get my fish to live as long and healthy as theirs. I have changed my feeding regiment from their experiences; i still qt and do not have plans to change that.

But anyone who does should be reading everything posted, what fish they keep what they dont, what and how they feed, and how they filter. Paul’s method is not drop the fish in and pray it lives. If thats what a reefer has read here they should not attempt immunity systems.

Oh your 100% right it's not about dropping fish in and praying they live

 

[Cabinetman]

Oh your 100% right it's not about dropping fish in and praying they live

Yes but your basically saying feed it a good diet , have good water quality and you’ll be trouble free. Ya that might be your experience but it hasn’t been mine. I think you guys have been lucky not to have been infected with a bad strain of velvet period

 

[Gweeds1980]

I have to disagree that paul and others sharing their methods and experiences with immunity is reckless.

From reading many of their posts they have very complete systems that require “work” to produce the results they have.

I do not think it is Paul’s fault if a reefer attempts parasite immunity and fails. When the reefer did not follow the protocols that he uses.

I am not a practitioner of this method, i follow this thread for the stories and for insight in how to get my fish to live as long and healthy as theirs. I have changed my feeding regiment from their experiences; i still qt and do not have plans to change that.

But anyone who does should be reading everything posted, what fish they keep what they dont, what and how they feed, and how they filter. Paul’s method is not drop the fish in and pray it lives. If thats what a reefer has read here they should not attempt immunity systems.

Couldn't agree more with this...

I started this journey after having kept to strict quarantine protocols for years... every now and then something would make it through and wipe out almost everything. I read Paul's methods and decided, based on my own knowledge and some research, that it all made sense.

It's not just about diet... although that is a large part. It's about running every part of the system as naturally as possible. Diverse bacteria populations, healthy algae growth controlled by herbivores, as natural a diet as you can get, the corals very much come second... which is so often not the way people want to approach the hobby. Each to their own.

For someone who wants clean white Marko type rocks, with pretty acropora growing like wildfire, perfect white sand and a few fish to provide some nutrients for the coral, this is not the way forward.

For those that think this is an easier or lazier option than QTing, think again!! I spend time each month at the beach, picking seaweeds and shellfish, collecting water and sand... I visit several fishmongers to make the food I make, I spend countless hours watching my fish, seeing how they interact with each other and their environment, I keep records of everything, I research different bacteria and the interactions between the various strains and I spend an awful lot of time reading papers on fish disease, immunity and how medications actually work and what else they damage.

Is that the lazy option, versus buying some fish, chucking them in a sterile tank with some copper and leaving them for 30 days?

Recently I have made the decision to shut down my reef... not due to disease I might add! But because the time and effort to maintain it was just too much following the arrival of our 4th child in April. You can't let up with immunity, you have to constantly introduce new (and old) pathogens and strains, ensuring exposure is maintained... all this with no actual way of being able to measure what diseases your fish are actually exposed to!!

All my fish were sold... everyone who bought them were happy with the disease exposure and happy they were immune... guess what, I've not had a single person come back to me to say the fish died or that they infected all their other fish

My tank is going to be set up as a Malawi cichlid tank... it's already cycled in fact. I've been doing loads of research... water parameters are an area where I've been focussing. Getting the right elements at the right levels affects a lot with malawis. Guess what.. even immunity!!

Will I be quarantining my new fish? No chance.

When I set up another reef in a few years, will I be doing the same as I did this time? Absolutely.

 

[atoll]

"Immunity" or not, mechanical filtration can help lower the number of parasites enough for the fish to fight them off. I feel I feed my fish very well but have been slacking for the past few months on live foods. My hippo tang used to get the occasional few spots and I'd turn on my UV at night for a few days and it wouldn't be seen again for a few months. I recently added an Achilles to my tank (which most of my fish were killed off shortly after an outbreak a year or so ago so I know it was present[no UV at the time]). So far so good on the achillies and i attribute that to the health of the fish and leaving the UV on 24/7 for the ~5 days I've had it.
Paulb uses both ozone and a diatom filter, both shown to kill free floating parasites. It's the combination of built up immunity and mechanical filtration to allow the build up of resistance. That's my take and interpretation of experience.

I haven't used mechanical filtration for a number of years unless you want to call skimming it so mechanical filtration is not the answer for me anyway.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I keep a powder blue tang and have done so for many years. I have had great success keeping healthy fish but I take my time and do follow conventional QT best practices. Remember that there are hundreds of failures for not QTing over the long run for every one success.

The old saying is that “figures will not lie,” but a new saying is “liars will figure.” It is our duty, as aquarists, to prevent the liar from figuring; in other words, to prevent him from perverting the truth, in the interest of some theory he wishes to establish.

I feel it's prudent to add to this that within this thread are many links to papers which back up what Paul and others have been saying. Research into fish immunity, how it develops, is maintained and how diet influences it is relatively recent and our understanding is constantly evolving.
QT is, in my opinion, a shortcut for the lazy aquarist who doesn't want to understand their fishes physiology, evolution and interactions with their environment, but wants to be able to chuck them in a tank and hope for the best...

 

[Kmsutows]

I haven't used mechanical filtration for a number of years unless you want to call skimming it so mechanical filtration is not the answer for me anyway.

What fish do you keep? In my opinion and experience it helps during outbreaks because it reduces the number of parasites making it more manageable for the fish and better replicates the diluted number of parasites fish would contact in the ocean.

 

[najer]

Ok, not really a fish person adds more, I have one of the best lfs in England as my lfs, Southwest Marines for the English viewers, the fish get reserved for me and observed.
I will watch for an hour on and off, if they don't show a natural grazing / hunting action I will pass them by.
They bag it and a couple of hours later it swims out of the bag into my tank.
Stress, mentioned a lot recently, In MY Opinion has a lot to do with things.
It can't just be me that hates the fish in hand pictures, way to stress your fish out more?!
I trust my lfs's water!

 

[Gareth elliott]

@Cabinetman i have never kept African cichlids. But they look gorgeous just never matched the direction i wanted a tank to go. I enjoyed having a few large select SA cichlids in a tank as “wet pets”.

I think my next large tank will either be centered around butterflies or mono argentus.

 

[MnFish1]

I feel it's prudent to add to this that within this thread are many links to papers which back up what Paul and others have been saying. Research into fish immunity, how it develops, is maintained and how diet influences it is relatively recent and our understanding is constantly evolving.
QT is, in my opinion, a shortcut for the lazy aquarist who doesn't want to understand their fishes physiology, evolution and interactions with their environment, but wants to be able to chuck them in a tank and hope for the best...

Its also prudent to add that there are lots of papers and articles mentioned in this thread that contradict what Paul et al are saying. I think its also prudent to mention that there is no such thing as an 'Immune tank'. Its is the fish that are either immune or not.

1. The articles that state though there may be 'some' cross reactivity to different strains of CI for example, there is lots of evidence that CI strains that would not affect a fish from 'java' lets say could be more virulent to a fish from 'hawaii'.
2. There are lots of articles mentioning the severe mortality for CI in non-immune fish. Once the fish are immune - its a different story. There is no way to guarantee that a given fish you purchase is immune.
3. There are lots of articles mentioning the quarantine processes of major aquaria and zoos around the world. They do not suggest this method.

But anyone who does should be reading everything posted, what fish they keep what they dont, what and how they feed, and how they filter. Paul’s method is not drop the fish in and pray it lives. If thats what a reefer has read here they should not attempt immunity systems.

Since no one really knows exactly what kind of system each of the people keeping 'Immune tanks' is using (filtration, fish load, source of fish, UV, ozone, food, type of fish, etc etc) there is really no 'method' being discussed (which is why they say they don't 'promote' their method). Since each 'Immune tank' being discussed here is completely different - there is no real way to even know what is going on in each of them compared to the others. Which means there is certainly no way to draw cause/effect conclusions as to why these tanks are successful as compared to others with regards to parasites. I would like to know though - if a new fish is bought - and happens NOT to be 'Immune' to whatever parasite is in an 'Immune tank' what is the 'method' that is preventing this fish from getting a parasite (they haven't been on the special diet, etc etc when they are added) ?

We are not recommending you do what we do and there is more to what we do than you have stated. We are just stating facts as we know them to be with what we do, for how long we have been doing it along with the undeniable success over all those years. You have not come up or anybody else for that matter on a logical explanation as to why we have had successful long term disease free aquariums and that goes for quite a few of us now. Stress is a big factor as well as water quality environment abd food and feeding. There is no luck here I can assure you and even if there was it has surly long run out.

No offense - but a 'fact' is something that is proven. You are posting your own personal anecdotal evidence. Just recently posts espousing this 'method' say that people that quarantine are 'lazy', etc etc. (not necessarily you). You are certainly at least touting your methods if not 'promoting them'. - but Im going to try to give you a logical explanation for your success which has nothing to do with the reasons you/Paul B et al are stating:

1. Selection bias. You ignore the fish you've lost (like the poster above whose wrasse could have been cured of CI had it been treated in QT rather than 'dumped in the tank'. This is actually fairly common even among researchers - I'm not saying you or anyone else is 'misleading', merely 'forgetting'
2. You are obtaining fish that are very healthy and already immune to various parasites. Thus putting them in a tank is much less risky (without QT). I would like to someone with an 'Immune tank' add several clownfish that were tank-raised( and thus non-immune) - and see the results.
3. A certain percentage of fish with CI will survive (Including tangs) a certain percentage of fish with velvet will survive. Once they do - and they remain exposed to the parasite you're not likely to have problems. There is evidence that contrary to popular belief, that (especially if using ozone, high dose UV) that CI will die off in an aquarium over time. There is no evidence that adding mud from New England is re-adding CI to the tank for example.
4. The risk of problems with parasites rises quite a bit depending on how often fish, etc are being added to the tank. If you have a stable tank, with immune fish you wont have problems = as compared to people that seem to add new fish every week to their tanks.

 

[atoll]

Yes but your basically saying feed it a good diet , have good water quality and you’ll be trouble free. Ya that might be your experience but it hasn’t been mine. I think you guys have been lucky not to have been infected with a bad strain of velvet period

Well that clears that up then. We are all very lucky [emoji23]

 

[atoll]

What fish do you keep? In my opinion and experience it helps during outbreaks because it reduces the number of parasites making it more manageable for the fish and better replicates the diluted number of parasites fish would contact in the ocean.

Many but of the so called more difficult to keep many tangs and angels. Regal angel and multiband angels for instance. Regal tangs yellow tangs. Purple. Silver spot and Scopas.