It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[ZhiYung]

Hey @paul, what about corals then ? Do we need to dip them in revive to prevent flatworm ? Or just dump them in after acclimation and get a 6 line wrasse like in nature
Actually, I want to get a cleaner shrimp to increase the chance for fish immunity to surpass disease along with their diet. Isn’t that what fishes are doing in nature when something stucks in their body ? Go to Dr. Shrimp or find a nurse wrasse ?

 

[MnFish1]

BTW I have snorkeled and dived on a number of wonderful reefs in the Red Sea and yes I have kept a number of tangs without any major outbreaks of the likes of WS. Purple, yellow, golden eye, scopas, to name but a few and no I have never kept a powder blue but I have had plenty of fish from damsels to royal grammas etc that are prone to WS. In fact I have introduced RGs with WS only for it to disappear within 36 hours. The WS might well still be in my tank along with other parasites there is just no obvious signs of them just healthy disease free fish. Guess we are just lucky then [emoji4]

Would appreciate you explaining what 'WS' is. I assume its a parasite (Cryptocaryon?). If it is, explain to me on a scientific basis what could be in your tank that has cured 'WS' in an affected fish within 36 hours? It can't be the 'feeding' that quickly. Of course its well known that fish can be covered with CI only to look normal the next day as the parasites fall off. Whatever caused the fish to survive it certainly was nothing to do with your husbandry (unless you were using some kind of ozone/UV/ultrafiltration). How many times have you done this? If it was 1 time - it could have easily been 'luck'.

 

[MnFish1]

Many but of the so called more difficult to keep many tangs and angels. Regal angel and multiband angels for instance. Regal tangs yellow tangs. Purple. Silver spot and Scopas.

BTW you have a beautiful tank/great corals. Could part of your success relate to a relatively low fish density?

 

[atoll]

Its also prudent to add that there are lots of papers and articles mentioned in this thread that contradict what Paul et al are saying. I think its also prudent to mention that there is no such thing as an 'Immune tank'. Its is the fish that are either immune or not.

1. The articles that state though there may be 'some' cross reactivity to different strains of CI for example, there is lots of evidence that CI strains that would not affect a fish from 'java' lets say could be more virulent to a fish from 'hawaii'.
2. There are lots of articles mentioning the severe mortality for CI in non-immune fish. Once the fish are immune - its a different story. There is no way to guarantee that a given fish you purchase is immune.
3. There are lots of articles mentioning the quarantine processes of major aquaria and zoos around the world. They do not suggest this method.

Since no one really knows exactly what kind of system each of the people keeping 'Immune tanks' is using (filtration, fish load, source of fish, UV, ozone, food, type of fish, etc etc) there is really no 'method' being discussed (which is why they say they don't 'promote' their method). Since each 'Immune tank' being discussed here is completely different - there is no real way to even know what is going on in each of them compared to the others. Which means there is certainly no way to draw cause/effect conclusions as to why these tanks are successful as compared to others with regards to parasites. I would like to know though - if a new fish is bought - and happens NOT to be 'Immune' to whatever parasite is in an 'Immune tank' what is the 'method' that is preventing this fish from getting a parasite (they haven't been on the special diet, etc etc when they are added) ?

No offense - but a 'fact' is something that is proven. You are posting your own personal anecdotal evidence. Just recently posts espousing this 'method' say that people that quarantine are 'lazy', etc etc. (not necessarily you). You are certainly at least touting your methods if not 'promoting them'. - but Im going to try to give you a logical explanation for your success which has nothing to do with the reasons you/Paul B et al are stating:

1. Selection bias. You ignore the fish you've lost (like the poster above whose wrasse could have been cured of CI had it been treated in QT rather than 'dumped in the tank'. This is actually fairly common even among researchers - I'm not saying you or anyone else is 'misleading', merely 'forgetting'
2. You are obtaining fish that are very healthy and already immune to various parasites. Thus putting them in a tank is much less risky (without QT). I would like to someone with an 'Immune tank' add several clownfish that were tank-raised( and thus non-immune) - and see the results.
3. A certain percentage of fish with CI will survive (Including tangs) a certain percentage of fish with velvet will survive. Once they do - and they remain exposed to the parasite you're not likely to have problems. There is evidence that contrary to popular belief, that (especially if using ozone, high dose UV) that CI will die off in an aquarium over time. There is no evidence that adding mud from New England is re-adding CI to the tank for example.
4. The risk of problems with parasites rises quite a bit depending on how often fish, etc are being added to the tank. If you have a stable tank, with immune fish you wont have problems = as compared to people that seem to add new fish every week to their tanks.

So many assumptions I don't know where to begin ti answer all the above. My way and my filtration system has been outlined many times. I buy my fish frim many outlets some you may say wuth less than perfect reputations. I am not really interested in papers that contradict my methods as a paper in the future may well contradict it. What won't change is my successful methods and why should I? Various tanks many diiferent fish frim many different stores over many years, around 26 years in fact. No serious outbreak of disease of any kind recorded. I have a tank thread on here to show my successes. Paul, Lasse and a few more also have tank threads, we hide nothing nor do we suggest doubters try our methods as you may fail for whatever reason like not understanding them or trying to cut corners which are the usual reason for failure it would seem not that so many seem to fail using them.

 

[najer]

2. You are obtaining fish that are very healthy and already immune to various parasites. Thus putting them in a tank is much less risky (without QT). I would like to someone with an 'Immune tank' add several clownfish that were tank-raised( and thus non-immune) - and see the results.

I have 2 tank bred / raised clowns in my tanks, also "swim into the tank" added, they are cool as.

 

[MnFish1]

I have 2 tank bred / raised clowns in my tanks, also "swim into the tank" added, they are cool as.

And - what proof do you have that there is CI in your tank. I also do not quarantine (as I've said many times) but Im very selective about where I buy my fish - Im talking about actively adding non-immune fish to a tank with known CI.

 

[atoll]

Would appreciate you explaining what 'WS' is. I assume its a parasite (Cryptocaryon?). If it is, explain to me on a scientific basis what could be in your tank that has cured 'WS' in an affected fish within 36 hours? It can't be the 'feeding' that quickly. Of course its well known that fish can be covered with CI only to look normal the next day as the parasites fall off. Whatever caused the fish to survive it certainly was nothing to do with your husbandry (unless you were using some kind of ozone/UV/ultrafiltration). How many times have you done this? If it was 1 time - it could have easily been 'luck'.

Oh dear ... Sorry I give up. You obviously have not been reading all the explinations myself Paul and Lasse have given time and time again on so many threads and I dont wish to have to keep repeating them. So forgive me if I don't answer your questions here. [emoji21]

 

[atoll]

BTW you have a beautiful tank/great corals. Could part of your success relate to a relatively low fish density?

Low? 23 fish in 100 gallons.

 

[MnFish1]

So many assumptions I don't know where to begin ti answer all the above. My way and my filtration system has been outlined many times. I buy my fish frim many outlets some you may say wuth less than perfect reputations. I am not really interested in papers that contradict my methods as a paper in the future may well contradict it. What won't change is my successful methods and why should I? Various tanks many diiferent fish frim many different stores over many years, around 26 years in fact. No serious outbreak of disease of any kind recorded. I have a tank thread on here to show my successes. Paul, Lasse and a few more also have tank threads, we hide nothing nor do we suggest doubters try our methods as you may fail for whatever reason like not understanding them or trying to cut corners which are the usual reason for failure it would seem not that so many seem to fail using them.

You shouldn't change anything - and I never suggested you should.

There were 'no assumptions' that I saw in my post - in fact - I took information from you and other peoples posts when I asked my questions - which you neglected to answer lol. You just keep repeating the same things.

To simplify it for you - explain to me - if you add 10 non-immune fish to a tank which contains KNOWN velvet and cryptocaryon. Given the known mortality of these parasites in non-immune fish, which part of 'your method' would produce a greater survival likelihood than say a quarantine method? Since you are providing the method - I would hope you have a rationale as to how it would work in this scenario.

Oh dear ... Sorry I give up. You obviously have not been reading all the explinations myself Paul and Lasse have given time and time again on so many threads and I dont wish to have to keep repeating them. So forgive me if I don't answer your questions here. [emoji21]

BTW - I read all the posts in this thread. The reason you can't answer the question - is that you dont have an answer. I have yet to see the answer to it in this thread. If I missed it - please feel free to point it out. If so - I apologize.

 

[atoll]

Low? 23 fish in 100 gallons.

Thank you. Most of the corals have been grown from frags some to 10" plus accross with many transferred from tank to tank. A few of my fish have also been transferred from other tanks but many bought over the last 2.1/2 years.

 

[MnFish1]

Low? 23 fish in 100 gallons.

Well - of course you realize part of it relates to the size of the fish. 23 yellow tangs is different than 23 wrasses. Also looks like you have a fairly large sump. But either way - you have a beautiful tank.

 

[najer]

So many assumptions I don't know where to begin ti answer all the above. My way and my filtration system has been outlined many times. I buy my fish frim many outlets some you may say wuth less than perfect reputations. I am not really interested in papers that contradict my methods as a paper in the future may well contradict it. What won't change is my successful methods and why should I? Various tanks many diiferent fish frim many different stores over many years, around 26 years in fact. No serious outbreak of disease of any kind recorded. I have a tank thread on here to show my successes. Paul, Lasse and a few more also have tank threads, we hide nothing nor do we suggest doubters try our methods as you may fail for whatever reason like not understanding them or trying to cut corners which are the usual reason for failure it would seem not that so many seem to fail using them.

Exactly, too many people are hung up on waterchanges, mechanical dosing, cleaning their sand (what is that all about?) and numerous activities that IMO are not particularly that important!
Chasing numbers I think they call it, again IMO you should be able to do things more simply, I NEVER encourage the way I run my tanks precisely because we get bad press, you need to be very patient IMO, a lot of people try too hard and fast for changes IMO, it's not a race!?
(Did I say Imo enough so people don't get on my case too hard?!)

 

[MnFish1]

Exactly, too many people are hung up on waterchanges, mechanical dosing, cleaning their sand (what is that all about?) and numerous activities that IMO are not particularly that important!
Chasing numbers I think they call it, again IMO you should be able to do things more simply, I NEVER encourage the way I run my tanks precisely because we get bad press, you need to be very patient IMO, a lot of people try too hard and fast for changes IMO, it's not a race!?
(Did I say Imo enough so people don't get on my case too hard?!)

I agree with you najer. The point of this thread, though, is discussing the merits/disadvantages of an 'Immune reef'.

 

[atoll]

You shouldn't change anything - and I never suggested you should.

There were 'no assumptions' that I saw in my post - in fact - I took information from you and other peoples posts when I asked my questions - which you neglected to answer lol. You just keep repeating the same things.

To simplify it for you - explain to me - if you add 10 non-immune fish to a tank which contains KNOWN velvet and cryptocaryon. Given the known mortality of these parasites in non-immune fish, which part of 'your method' would produce a greater survival likelihood than say a quarantine method? Since you are providing the method - I would hope you have a rationale as to how it would work in this scenario.



BTW - I read all the posts in this thread. The reason you can't answer the question - is that you dont have an answer. I have yet to see the answer to it in this thread. If I missed it - please feel free to point it out. If so - I apologize.

In many threads including Paul's marathon one. Plus I am on my phone which isn't the easiest to type long replies on. However I am sure in the last 26 years never QTing buying fish and corlas from many different LFSs I have introduced all manner of nasties but I have only ever witnessed itch on a few on introduction but that had disappeared after 36 hours. Those diseases whatever they maybe may well still be lurking but I have no idea if they are or not. All I know is I introduced fish and if i notice itch it is not viable after 36 hours and no other fish appear to catch it or any other diseases I may have introduced over the last 25 years plus. BTW I do use Oxydators which I feel of our great benefit and I have written many times on here about them.

 

[atoll]

Well - of course you realize part of it relates to the size of the fish. 23 yellow tangs is different than 23 wrasses. Also looks like you have a fairly large sump. But either way - you have a beautiful tank.

Thanks. My sump is quite small really just 3' long.

 

[Mark Gray]

Yes but your basically saying feed it a good diet , have good water quality and you’ll be trouble free. Ya that might be your experience but it hasn’t been mine. I think you guys have been lucky not to have been infected with a bad strain of velvet period

Well yes and no, Bactria plays a huge part in this. My wife was from Thailand. I also travel the word for work. In Thailand the people have a very high tolerance for food poisoning. When I am there I usally eat what we call street food, no I do not have as high a tolerance as the Thai people to this, so I bring antibiotics where ever I travel. I am also chronically ill. In Mexico the people have a high tolerance for Salmonella, my brother did a study on this. I believe fish are the same way, if fed and introduced to a lot of different types of Bactria they get stronger and can easily fight off disease.

 

[najer]

I agree with you najer. The point of this thread, though, is discussing the merits/disadvantages of an 'Immune reef'.

See the above post, search sochting oxydators on R2R, maybe it is our secret weapon, I would never run a tank without them!
Sorry guys we know they are part of the equation!

 

[MnFish1]

In many threads including Paul's marathon one. Plus I am on my phone which isn't the easiest to type long replies on. However I am sure in the last 26 years never QTing buying fish and corlas from many different LFSs I have introduced all manner of nasties but I have only ever witnessed itch on a few on introduction but that had disappeared after 36 hours. Those diseases whatever they maybe may well still be lurking but I have no idea if they are or not. All I know is I introduced fish and if i notice itch it is not viable after 36 hours and no other fish appear to catch it or any other diseases I may have introduced over the last 25 years plus. BTW I do use Oxydators which I feel of our great benefit and I have written many times on here about them.

Thanks - I may be wrong - but the common ground in tanks that use this method seems to be some sort of ultrafiltration/sterilization/ozone/oxydator sometimes in higher than 'usual' doses - which of course reduces parasite numbers. I appreciate the answer. Again - one can't argue with success - and I hope you dont think Im arguing against what you're doing. Im only trying to figure out if its 'Immunity and general health' or 'removing the parasite burden to such an extent that fish can more easily be 'cured' and become immune.' I would be interested to hear from people keeping a so-called immune tank - whether they are also using extraneous methods that would decrease the numbers of free-swimming parasites (I happen to think this is the most important factor - as its the only way that would explain why adding non-immune fish to a tank would not produce mortality (or the CI/velvet is really not in the tank itself))

 

[Lowell Lemon]

This is just a discussion of personal experiances with long term results...so no facts are involved? How about the fact of long term success?

I know for a fact that my customers of over 20 years reduced their loss rates in each store that we set up with central filtration systems with proper U.V., Mechanical filtration, and at times Ozone injection. Their loss rates dropped from 30% to sometimes less than 1% in almost all cases. Some stores who we open to the suggestion also added quarantine systems for fish they felt needed active treatment. But the majority opted for the science of the equipment. The same equipment the wholesalers, aquaculture facilities, and large scale breeders used that supplied the fish in the first place. These individuals spent the money to aquire the science of caring for fish in high density environments...like the majority of overstocked aquariuims everyone is guilty of keeping in the first place. To just make a blanket statement that the equipment or methodology does not work is not fact period. It is opinion based on your own failure rates. How many fish have died in quarantine? Please add those numbers to your facts. I know I have personally killed more fish attempting to medicate them than by the use of proper filtration, feeding and reduction of stress factors. Those are my (facts) opinions based on my personal experiance.

I have attempted to shine the light on an organism that is comensual to each and every fish that causes similar symptoms to "Ich" and "Velvet" only to be told that I am wrong. Well I paid for the decropsies and micorscope work preformed on my behalf by a teaching DVM at Washington State University to provide proof of losses to a client of mine. After the science the equipment was added and the losses in their two large displays stopped. That is right stopped...that is fact.

Without the proper use of a microscope or decropsy of a fish a actual diagnosis is impossible so we often resort to guess work in the attempt to treat the fish. So we add copper, or broad sperctrum antibiotics in an attempt to cure the sick fish. This is not how you treat any patient. First diagnose then develop a treatment. You don't just shotgun it and hope for the best. Most teatments suppress the immune system of any animal you are treating (humans included) and this leads to secondary opportunistic organisms that attack the compromised immune system. This is why so many fish die in quarantine with a shotgun approach. These are science facts not opinion.

But lets not discuss our success only our failures right?

Good luck with that.

Peace out.

 

[Mark Gray]

In many threads including Paul's marathon one. Plus I am on my phone which isn't the easiest to type long replies on. However I am sure in the last 26 years never QTing buying fish and corlas from many different LFSs I have introduced all manner of nasties but I have only ever witnessed itch on a few on introduction but that had disappeared after 36 hours. Those diseases whatever they maybe may well still be lurking but I have no idea if they are or not. All I know is I introduced fish and if i notice itch it is not viable after 36 hours and no other fish appear to catch it or any other diseases I may have introduced over the last 25 years plus. BTW I do use Oxydators which I feel of our great benefit and I have written many times on here about them.

Atol I want to ask what is an Oxydator