It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[melypr1985]

Not true, my pair hosts a hammer.

Technically it's the hammer that "hosts" the clownfish.

 

[Kendrid]

The issue I have with a tank with ich is that new fish are "up in the air" if they will make it or not.

My tank is four years old now and three years ago I got ich even though I quarantined all fish. I went fallow for 12 weeks, killed 3 fish in QT, put the survivors back in the display and had ich show up a few weeks later. At that point I gave up on the idea of fallow and decided to run a "healthy" tank with overfed fish. Either I messed up the QT, I cross contaminated or I have "super ich" that won't die.

I haven't lost an established fish since then. I have a powder blue tang and kole tang which everyone says are "ich magnets" yet they never show a single bump. New fish are hit or miss though. I still quarantine all new fish since there are far worse parasites out there than ich and many will wipe out a tank. A month ago I add a firefish, coris wrasse and banded sleeper goby that all went through QT. The firefish and wrasse have been great. From about day two the goby turned dark and while he ate he got darker and darker. Last night he didn't eat and I knew he was done. He died last night.

It is something I live with. Three months ago I add a different goby and it last about two weeks. While gobys are said to be disease resistant in my tank they don't last. I like them but I have to give up on them.

Here is the tank. It is in my home office.

 

[Mark Gray]

Love it great laught I am not feeding all that stuff but I sure do like black worms I feed my yeast just like Paul does, His secret is all the supper models he hangs out with

 

[Mark Gray]

The issue I have with a tank with ich is that new fish are "up in the air" if they will make it or not.

My tank is four years old now and three years ago I got ich even though I quarantined all fish. I went fallow for 12 weeks, killed 3 fish in QT, put the survivors back in the display and had ich show up a few weeks later. At that point I gave up on the idea of fallow and decided to run a "healthy" tank with overfed fish. Either I messed up the QT, I cross contaminated or I have "super ich" that won't die.

I haven't lost an established fish since then. I have a powder blue tang and kole tang which everyone says are "ich magnets" yet they never show a single bump. New fish are hit or miss though. I still quarantine all new fish since there are far worse parasites out there than ich and many will wipe out a tank. A month ago I add a firefish, coris wrasse and banded sleeper goby that all went through QT. The firefish and wrasse have been great. From about day two the goby turned dark and while he ate he got darker and darker. Last night he didn't eat and I knew he was done. He died last night.

It is something I live with. Three months ago I add a different goby and it last about two weeks. While gobys are said to be disease resistant in my tank they don't last. I like them but I have to give up on them.

Here is the tank. It is in my home office.

Nice Tank

 

[Fr4nkthet4nk]

Thanks for that, for the record I absolutely understand where you're coming from on this and largely agree.

I do not have the experience with reefs that you do. I would suggest that I do have the experience with regards to keeping a strict QT protocol. I kept this with all my various FW tanks going back to my late teens... so about 18 years or so. By and large it was successful, but I lost all sorts over the years to various infections which made it through...

Dats, high end plecs, snakeheads, discus, African and American cichlids all eventually succumbed to either FW WS, fungal or bacterial infections. I believe (and it may only be me) that this was in large part due to two reasons.
1. My occasional sloppiness which led to a pathogen being introduced.
2. The lack of resistance of the fish due to being kept in 'sterile' conditions.

The two are obviously linked. I cannot change me... I honestly could not tell you, in the majority of cases, what went wrong, thus 1 above cannot be changed. What I can change is 2... so why not give it a go?

I believe I have the relevant skills to do so and I totally understand both the concept and the difficulty of keeping a system with pathogens present, but in low numbers.

I run UV, this will not be changed... I anticipate that this will aid in the destruction of a number of pathogens to keep levels below 'infestation'.

The question I would ask is why those tens of thousands of tangs were unable to fight ich? Is it due to an inherent inability to stave of attack from the parasite? Evidence suggests no... otherwise over the millions of years of evolution, they would have died out already. Is it due to their immune response being overwhelmed due to the vast numbers of parasites in a closed system as opposed to the reef? Far more likely.

What I am striving for here is to keep levels of all things (good and bad, chemical and pathogenic) to as close to real reef levels as possible... thus allowing the fishes immune system to respond in a successful manner.

I joke when I say I'll know I've been successful when I can purposely introduce velvet and my fish survive. A fish which already has symptoms is likely near enough dead without some serious intervention (which is well documented on this fine forum). The problem is, we only know these fish have the disease by the symptoms it displays.

My QT protocol under this 'immune' system is still under development, but I will be slowly and carefully introducing all new fish to the pathogens in my tank in order that their immune systems can keep pace.

For anyone interested, I'll add another post shortly to show how I've achieved this with my coral beauty (which was guaranteed disease free when I obtained it).

IMHO and like Paul B, this is just my opinion (with a bit of science and fish guts thrown in), I believe my method is a sustainable and viable alternative to the strict 'sterile' QT protocols adopted by the majority.

Cheers.

Could you post your quarantine protocol please?

 

[Gweeds1980]

Could you post your quarantine protocol please?

They were somewhere early on in the thread:

1. Treat all new fish as per accepted 'sterile' QT protocols, I will be doing 30 days copper treatment at therapeutic levels and treating any other visible or quantifiable pathogens as per accepted norms.

2. Day 1 of 'immune' QT... commence feeding with the same foods as DT. 7 days duration. Remove all copper and other medications.

3. Day 8. Perform 20% water change using NSW from same source as DT as the new water. Do this daily for 7 days.

4. Day 15, place live rock from DT sump into QT. Stop water changes.

5. Day 22. Resume 20% daily WC but using DT water as new water.

6. Day 29, introduce new fish into DT.

Please note, on advice I have removed step 1.

So far had a coral beauty through this process and the PBT is number 2. The idea is to provide a limited initial exposure to the pathogens in the DT having already given the new fish the same diet as the others.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

I think if you don't add too many fish at one time to a healthy established tank you will not have a problem. Never quarantined in 30 years. Never had an ich outbreak

 

[Gweeds1980]

I think if you don't add too many fish at one time to a healthy established tank you will not have a problem. Never quarantined in 30 years. Never had an ich outbreak

Agreed, part of this experiment was to develop some protocols for how this could be done reliably and over time as an alternative to the 'sterile' QT process.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Agreed, part of this experiment was to develop some protocols for how this could be done reliably and over time as an alternative to the 'sterile' QT process.

Actually I have put tangs in my tank that had ich and it would be gone in a week. not saying the tank was free but the fish were.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Actually I have put tangs in my tank that had ich and it would be gone in a week. not saying the tank was free but the fish were.

Yup, that's the point right there... the fish remain disease free although we know there's ich in the tank... it's diet mostly that does it and I run UV to keep parasite levels to a minimum.

 

[jasonrusso]

It's still early days and I intend to also do the following (when funds allow in the case of lighting)
1. Upgrade lights and run as closely as possible to reef lighting conditions.

Any chance you can use solar tubes?

 

[Bruce Burnett]

The issue I have with a tank with ich is that new fish are "up in the air" if they will make it or not.

My tank is four years old now and three years ago I got ich even though I quarantined all fish. I went fallow for 12 weeks, killed 3 fish in QT, put the survivors back in the display and had ich show up a few weeks later. At that point I gave up on the idea of fallow and decided to run a "healthy" tank with overfed fish. Either I messed up the QT, I cross contaminated or I have "super ich" that won't die.

I haven't lost an established fish since then. I have a powder blue tang and kole tang which everyone says are "ich magnets" yet they never show a single bump. New fish are hit or miss though. I still quarantine all new fish since there are far worse parasites out there than ich and many will wipe out a tank. A month ago I add a firefish, coris wrasse and banded sleeper goby that all went through QT. The firefish and wrasse have been great. From about day two the goby turned dark and while he ate he got darker and darker. Last night he didn't eat and I knew he was done. He died last night.

It is something I live with. Three months ago I add a different goby and it last about two weeks. While gobys are said to be disease resistant in my tank they don't last. I like them but I have to give up on them.

Here is the tank. It is in my home office.

Nice tank
I think when you add a new fish sometimes they die for other reasons. Aggression from other fish established fish. Handling before you ever purchased. If you do online ordering like I have as the closest LFS is 2.5 hours away it could be the transit. Our Ups delivery can be between 3:30 and 8:00 not good if the outside temperature is 125 degrees F. Had four out of 6 fish die within 2 weeks. Next shipment same place not one died as the weather was nice. Never lost one i purchased from LFS from disease.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Any chance you can use solar tubes?

I did consider it... but we just don't get the sunlight here... I'm in Norfolk, UK.

 

[Paul B]

I haven't lost an established fish since then. I have a powder blue tang and kole tang which everyone says are "ich magnets" yet they never show a single bump

Your tank, my tank, and all healthy tanks which are immune have living, thriving ich parasites in them. That is how a tank, just like the sea stays immune. Ich parasites, and all parasites don't "want" to kill the fish. That would be silly as there would be no more fish left. They just want to have a little lunch of some slime and go off to do whatever parasites do. The fish should not sustain any harm and the parasites can get fat or dance. We humans are also full of parasites and we have different parasites inhabiting different parts on us. Yes, even the majority of us that bathe, although taking a bath is a very new thing to humans as we got along for 3,000,000 years without doing that.
I also lost fish but "never" from ich or any other illness. It is always from jumping out, bullying, or starvation due to the fact that I can't always give fish what they need to live even though I try. But disease should always be a non issue. I never think about it and it doesn't think about me.

 

[Tahoe61]

Unless a hobbyist performs a necropsy and is able to ID pathogens accurately through microscopic examine, takes tissue samples from gills, and organs to rule out disease than any hobbyist can not say definitively their fish did not succumb to a disease process. In the wild there are specific animals that eat parasites, the fish are not confined to small habitats where the number of parasites may be left unchecked secondary to lack of natural predators. . Animals like humans exhibit a decline in the immune response as they age this is a fact, humans and fish may die from natural organ failure secondary to advanced age, but they commonly die from a specific disease process, no magical theory or amount of pure speculation is going to change these facts of life.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Unless a hobbyist performs a necropsy and is able to ID pathogens accurately through microscopic examine, takes tissue samples from gills, and organs to rule out disease than any hobbyist can not say definitively their fish did not succumb to a disease process. In the wild there are specific animals that eat parasites, the fish are not confined to small habitats where the number of parasites maybe left unchecked secondary to lack of natural predators. . Animals like humans exhibit a decline in the immune response as they age this is a fact, humans and fish may die from natural organ failure secondary to advanced age, but they commonly die from a specific disease process, no magical theory or amount of pure speculation is going to change these facts of life.

You are of course right... which i guess was the point of the post...

However, whilst I can't speak for anyone else, parasites aren't unchecked in my system... they are checked in by me and not allowed to have too big a party mainly due to my UV which is nearly big enough to sterilise me

However, in the 29 or so years I've been keeping fish I have carried out a strict QT process for almost all of them until a couple of months ago. I always (every 5 years or so) ended up letting something through (after all, nothing we do can be 100% effective 100% of the time).

At least some, if not all, my fish would be wiped out by whatever made it through... because they had no way of dealing with it.

The method I am using (and let's make this clear... Absolutely not suggesting anyone else should) has resulted in my knowing I have both ich and brook at least in my system and yet not a single fish has shown a symptom beyond a bit of heavy breathing from my female maroon clown for 2 hours... and that was probably because she was knackered from spawning... again.

To be blunt, I don't really care if you or everyone else thinks this is daft and that I'm an idiot... that's probably true. What I do care about is the welfare of the animals I keep and so far this method has resulted in zero disease symptoms, fish breeding and stress events (New addition, me ignoring the tank entirely for a week and a half) which have gone by unnoticed.

I proudly count ich and brook and whatever else wants to join them, as part of my ecosystem, a thriving, growing, living and breeding reef in a box.

 

[Tahoe61]

It's not my intent to convey daftness or anything of that nature. ;Happy My intent is that until titers are performed and necropsy or samples taken from live fish and visually ID'd through microscopic examine than no one can say or post with certainty that pathogens did not play a role in the ultimate death or decline of live stock. Of course I am all for providing the best possible care for the animals that hobbyist keep, be it through stress reduction and or nutritional techniques. Observation is extremely important to achieve those goals. My point is that there has to be some actual science before broad statements such as level the immunity or cause of death and decline are inferred.
I applaud your efforts to provide the best environment for your live stock, sincerely. ;Shy

 

[justingraham]

@Paul B when ur last fish that passed away from old age died did u notice any ich spots on them? From my thinking an old fish that passes away would have a low level immune system which would stop working. Am I right in thinking this way?

And @Tahoe61 if a fish is an an ich management tank or immune tank when a fish dies and you do an autopsy wouldn't there be torrents on the fish? But that wouldn't mean that that's what the fish died of. Or am I not thinking correctly?

 

[Tahoe61]

@Paul B
And @Tahoe61 if a fish is an an ich management tank or immune tank when a fish dies and you do an autopsy wouldn't there be torrents on the fish? But that wouldn't mean that that's what the fish died of. Or am I not thinking correctly?

When stress is introduced in whatever form, water quality, lack of oxygenation....no tank is immune. The fish may not be symptomatic or quickly appear to recover but that does not mean they will not succumb to a more stressful event. Secondary infections are a common occurrence when parasites are present and the fish is symptomatic, but until a necropsy is performed the cause of death is not conclusive based on observation only. A fish can still die from tissue damage to the gills from marine ich even after effective treatment for an active disease. The fish over came the disease but died from the damage done by the parasite to the gills causing chronic hypoxia.

 

[Paul B]

I proudly count ich and brook and whatever else wants to join them, as part of my ecosystem, a thriving, growing, living and breeding reef in a box.

Me too.

I actually do a necropsy on most of the fish I have that die and I can say that I have never found a gill parasite on one of my fish that died of old age. Occasionally I will see 2 or 3 spots on the sides of a fish just before he dies "of old age". I wrote an article someplace on what fish look like when they die of old age and I will try to find it. Of course none of our fish will live forever and they of course have to die of something. My Mother died at age 99. She died of organ failure due to "Old Age". At age 99 a human will die of old age but you can call it anything you like.
If a fish dies at 5 years old, it probably died of disease but if a tang for instance lives to 21 years old, it died of old age. It may have had parasites, velvet, bacterial infection or something else but for all practical purposes "in this hobby", it died of old age.
Most of us don't possess the equipment or skills to know if a fish dies from cancer, kidney failure, virus or some trauma but the vast majority of fish in this hobby die from parasites which I feel is a shame because that is such an easy thing to prevent.
My fireclown is 26 years old and seems perfectly healthy and is still spawning, if he dies, I will call it old age no matter how many parasites he may have at death.
If your fish are living to whatever their perceived age limit is and they are spawning, they died of old age. If you have paired adult fish and they are not spawning, they are not healthy.
Almost no fish except seahorses, bangai cardinals and pipefish die in 5 or 6 years. Most angels and tangs can live into their 20s but I would think 15 is a good average age for one of those fish to die in a tank because no matter how hard we try, we will never reproduce the same nutritious foods the fish gets in the sea or the exercise, current, lighting, UV radiation and mates.
The salt water hobby in the US is 46 years old. I know as I was here when they imported fish here. Some fish were imported sooner in small quantities and in Europe it started sooner. But in all those years the majority of people still have the same problems with disease so we are obviously doing it wrong. How many people get disgusted and get out? Why is that? By now, there should be no diseases, especially simple ones like parasites. I figured it out long ago and I feel we will all get there in time.
Most of us are not in this long enough to know the life span of the fish we normally keep. No, not even in the aquarium in Dubai which is very young. But if we can keep even one watchman gobi for 12 years, then we know that their lifespan is at least that. I kept a pair for that long and they died with in weeks of each other. They spawned constantly and there was no disease present on either one of them by necropsy.
This is one of those watchman gobies when I got him as a baby.


This is them as young adults, a few years old.


And this is them as old pot bellied adults probably 11 years old.


I try to prove everything I say through pictures as all of my experience or knowledge came to me by my own research or spending time with our fish underwater, none of it came via the internet which to me is a new thing and much of it is by rumor or guesswork. (yes, I am old)
Fish come to us already immune, all we have to do is strengthen that immunity and give the fish the same foods it gets in the sea and we stop trying to "train" them to eat other things just because it is easy for us. WE also have to quit trying to keep them from diseases which are normal for them to come in contact with.
My fish don't ever get sick and I am not that smart or good looking. I rarely change water, never test, have no medications, no hospital tank, never quarantine and yet my fish are all spawning (the paired ones anyway) and The rest "usually" but not always die of old age. They have accidents and jump out, but never get disease. Not because of me, but because I get out of the way and let the fish do what they know how to do best. Live immune.
This fireclown is 26. (he smiles with his bottom teeth) He has bags under his eyes. I once had a percula clown that lived to 18 years old and he also developed bags under his eyes just like people. I am not sure that is a sign of an old clown or if that is some sort of malady, but I have seen older clowns without the bags. He spawns regularly with his 19 year old girlfriend so I am not worried.