wowkingjames
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the information.
It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)
- Thread starter Gweeds1980
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OP
OP
I have to say I'm not going to be doing any post mortems with my fish... I'm comfortable with the observations. I won't therefore be claiming that none of my fish died from disease, more that they didn't have observable symptoms when they died... unless they did of courseMe too.
I actually do a necropsy on most of the fish I have that die and I can say that I have never found a gill parasite on one of my fish that died of old age. Occasionally I will see 2 or 3 spots on the sides of a fish just before he dies "of old age". I wrote an article someplace on what fish look like when they die of old age and I will try to find it. Of course none of our fish will live forever and they of course have to die of something. My Mother died at age 99. She died of organ failure due to "Old Age". At age 99 a human will die of old age but you can call it anything you like.
If a fish dies at 5 years old, it probably died of disease but if a tang for instance lives to 21 years old, it died of old age. It may have had parasites, velvet, bacterial infection or something else but for all practical purposes "in this hobby", it died of old age.
Most of us don't possess the equipment or skills to know if a fish dies from cancer, kidney failure, virus or some trauma but the vast majority of fish in this hobby die from parasites which I feel is a shame because that is such an easy thing to prevent.
My fireclown is 26 years old and seems perfectly healthy and is still spawning, if he dies, I will call it old age no matter how many parasites he may have at death.
If your fish are living to whatever their perceived age limit is and they are spawning, they died of old age. If you have paired adult fish and they are not spawning, they are not healthy.
Almost no fish except seahorses, bangai cardinals and pipefish die in 5 or 6 years. Most angels and tangs can live into their 20s but I would think 15 is a good average age for one of those fish to die in a tank because no matter how hard we try, we will never reproduce the same nutritious foods the fish gets in the sea or the exercise, current, lighting, UV radiation and mates.
The salt water hobby in the US is 46 years old. I know as I was here when they imported fish here. Some fish were imported sooner in small quantities and in Europe it started sooner. But in all those years the majority of people still have the same problems with disease so we are obviously doing it wrong. How many people get disgusted and get out? Why is that? By now, there should be no diseases, especially simple ones like parasites. I figured it out long ago and I feel we will all get there in time.
Most of us are not in this long enough to know the life span of the fish we normally keep. No, not even in the aquarium in Dubai which is very young. But if we can keep even one watchman gobi for 12 years, then we know that their lifespan is at least that. I kept a pair for that long and they died with in weeks of each other. They spawned constantly and there was no disease present on either one of them by necropsy.
This is one of those watchman gobies when I got him as a baby.
This is them as young adults, a few years old.
And this is them as old pot bellied adults probably 11 years old.
I try to prove everything I say through pictures as all of my experience or knowledge came to me by my own research or spending time with our fish underwater, none of it came via the internet which to me is a new thing and much of it is by rumor or guesswork. (yes, I am old)
Fish come to us already immune, all we have to do is strengthen that immunity and give the fish the same foods it gets in the sea and we stop trying to "train" them to eat other things just because it is easy for us. WE also have to quit trying to keep them from diseases which are normal for them to come in contact with.
My fish don't ever get sick and I am not that smart or good looking. I rarely change water, never test, have no medications, no hospital tank, never quarantine and yet my fish are all spawning (the paired ones anyway) and The rest "usually" but not always die of old age. They have accidents and jump out, but never get disease. Not because of me, but because I get out of the way and let the fish do what they know how to do best. Live immune.
This fireclown is 26. (he smiles with his bottom teeth) He has bags under his eyes. I once had a percula clown that lived to 18 years old and he also developed bags under his eyes just like people. I am not sure that is a sign of an old clown or if that is some sort of malady, but I have seen older clowns without the bags. He spawns regularly with his 19 year old girlfriend so I am not worried.
The closest I have come to piscorian post mortem is chopping the spines off that frozen, brook ridden lionfish and then blending it up... it was horrific... and that's from someone with a biology degree who has dissected people!
On the plus side, the fish are loving the lion food... I guess they think they're getting their evolutionary own back
Paul B
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You can easily look at a dead fishes gill filaments with a low power jewelers loupe of even a magnifying glass. The gills look like feathers and parasites are very easy to see.
Paul B
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How to tell if a fish is dying of old age. (by me)
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/how-to-tell-marine-fish-dying-old-age-5782/
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/how-to-tell-marine-fish-dying-old-age-5782/
RobertN
Active Member
From Gweeds1980:
I run UV, this will not be changed... I anticipate that this will aid in the destruction of a number of pathogens to keep levels below 'infestation'.
I was wondering what UV device you use and where is it set up in your system? I know people use them, but I have not learned much about them. Also, do you worry that the UV will kill off other beneficial organisms such as good bacteria (I think I recall reading some folks stating that concern on some forums)? Thanks!
I run UV, this will not be changed... I anticipate that this will aid in the destruction of a number of pathogens to keep levels below 'infestation'.
I was wondering what UV device you use and where is it set up in your system? I know people use them, but I have not learned much about them. Also, do you worry that the UV will kill off other beneficial organisms such as good bacteria (I think I recall reading some folks stating that concern on some forums)? Thanks!
OP
OP
The UV I run is a pond unit... I forget the exact model but it's a TMC unit rated up to 45000 litres...
They're really simple, the water is pumped into a chamber which exposes it to UV-C light, it then returns to the tank. The UV lamp is shielded so only the water passing through is sterilised.
The UV-C light will kill all cells it comes into contact with, so anything in the water that passes through the unit.
This helps to keep the free swimming stages of pathogens like ich down to manageable numbers.
Any bacteria exposed to the UV-C will be destroyed. Luckily most of the beneficial bacteria live on or in the rock and sand and are thus untouched by the UV-C light.
Hope that helps?
OP
OP
RobertN
Active Member
Thanks! Is there any reason to set it up such that it is before or after a protein skimmer and a biopellets reactor in a sump? I have both. I know that the biopellets reactor is trying to increase the bacteria that will act on nitrates to reduce them. And the usual recommendation is to guide the effluent out of the biopellets reactor to the intake of the protein skimmer. So would that mean that a UV device should be fed its water downline from the protein skimmer?
jasonrusso
2500 Club Member
How many watts is this? Also, to kill parasites it needs to be run at a slower speed than for algae (like for a pond). Is this unit rated to be used for parasites?
TMC's website shows pond units and aquarium units. I'm not saying there is a difference but do you run yours at a slower speed than recommended?
OP
OP
That's right... although due to sump design, I actually have the intakes to all 3 in one section and outputs from all 3 in the next section... probably not the most efficient, but there you go! Only reason is because my refuge is first in my sump as it acts as a mechanical filter too.
I guess perfect design would be UV, followed by biopellets followed by skimmer. That way the skimmer is given a chance to remove both anything destroyed by the UV and the nitrate laden bacteria from the bio pellets.
OP
OP
UV-C is UV-C is UV-C... as long as it's 290nm or lower it'll destroy cells. Some are marketed for aquariums, some for ponds. Mainly due to design etc. Many UV units state they are suitable for aquarium and pond use.
I do run it at a MUCH lower flow rate though. The unit is rated with a max flow rate of 180,000 lph. Mine is fed from a TMC pump which runs at 1500 lph. I figure this way it'll be a lot more effective on anything which does get pushed through it and I'm achieving tank volume turnover each hour.
Bulbs need changing approx every 6 months, but they are relatively inexpensive.
OP
OP
Lol... I know how he feels... with 3 kids under 8, I have those bags and I'm only 36!!
He says, currently sat on the sofa at 3.52 am with the youngest (2, going in 22) finally dropping off next to him after being woken by 'The buzzes' in his room (flies).
OP
OP
Sorry, 55w. It's late enough to be classed as early... that's my excuse!
I enjoy hearing about success in Reef keeping...just don't let some people hear you use U.V. or Ozone...it is heresy to many on this forum. LOL.
Recently watched a video on this forum by a biologist with his doctorate who was studying the levels of bacteria and viruses around reefs. The levels are quite high and would cause a lot of concern if one was trying to duplicate nature or defeat it with quarantine procedures.
He did note an atoll where the water enters one end and exits the other. After passing through large reef areas with lots of coral, sea fans, clams, and other filter feeders the exit level of bacteria and virus was almost non detectable. I wonder if this is part of the reason mature natural aquariums with filtration aids like U.V. and Ozone do so well?
I have some acrylic kicking around in the shop perhaps it is time to get a new tank set up. My old 40 gallon tank has not had a fish in it for 15 years. Do you think that is enough to ensure all the parasites have died out? You could say my live rock is dead or at least well seasoned.
Recently watched a video on this forum by a biologist with his doctorate who was studying the levels of bacteria and viruses around reefs. The levels are quite high and would cause a lot of concern if one was trying to duplicate nature or defeat it with quarantine procedures.
He did note an atoll where the water enters one end and exits the other. After passing through large reef areas with lots of coral, sea fans, clams, and other filter feeders the exit level of bacteria and virus was almost non detectable. I wonder if this is part of the reason mature natural aquariums with filtration aids like U.V. and Ozone do so well?
I have some acrylic kicking around in the shop perhaps it is time to get a new tank set up. My old 40 gallon tank has not had a fish in it for 15 years. Do you think that is enough to ensure all the parasites have died out? You could say my live rock is dead or at least well seasoned.
Paul B
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My socks are 36.
If you are trying to run a natural tank, all these things you are adding are reducing the idea of a natural tank. Bio pellets and UV are not very natural as they will kill some things. I do run ozone which is not really natural unless you say it is produced by lightning. I don't run it because I think it will kill anything as there are amphipods living in my skimmer. I only use it for water quality and I am not sure if it does anything with that but I have been using one for decades and I like the way it looks.
In a natural tank I personally want all the bacteria, viruses and parasites I can grow. They are natural and keep up the fishes immune system just like on a reef. If you eliminate to much of them, the fish will have a weaker immune system as their system will become as strong as it needs to be to keep the fish healthy so you don't have to worry about silly diseases and parasites. I realize that is hard to grasp but in all the years this hobby has been around, most of us are not to good at preventing disease as you can tell because the disease forum is packed.
OP
OP
Thanks Paul, I did toy with the idea of not running the UV 24/7... maybe just one day pet month to stop anything getting too much of a hold... I do get what you're saying but I think there's a certain truth in that our tanks are not as vast as the reef and our fish can't escape it's confines so rapid multiplication of parasites is a concern to me. I want them there, but not in large enough numbers to overwhelm the immune response should there be a power cut or a heater fail etc.My socks are 36.
If you are trying to run a natural tank, all these things you are adding are reducing the idea of a natural tank. Bio pellets and UV are not very natural as they will kill some things. I do run ozone which is not really natural unless you say it is produced by lightning. I don't run it because I think it will kill anything as there are amphipods living in my skimmer. I only use it for water quality and I am not sure if it does anything with that but I have been using one for decades and I like the way it looks.
In a natural tank I personally want all the bacteria, viruses and parasites I can grow. They are natural and keep up the fishes immune system just like on a reef. If you eliminate to much of them, the fish will have a weaker immune system as their system will become as strong as it needs to be to keep the fish healthy so you don't have to worry about silly diseases and parasites. I realize that is hard to grasp but in all the years this hobby has been around, most of us are not to good at preventing disease as you can tell because the disease forum is packed.
OP
OP
Fyi, the bio pellets were mainly because my nitrates were off the scale... in fact off the scale 4 times and the scale went up to 400ppm by the time I'd diluted samples with 0 no3 saltwater.
I do think I overdid it tho, got the nitrates to zero... have now cut back on pellets so that the nitrate is pretty stable at 10ppm and phosphates at 0.5ppm. All seems happy at that level... algae grows pretty much at the same rate the tangs eat it will probably up the nitrate bit again when the PBT goes in in a few weeks.
I do think I overdid it tho, got the nitrates to zero... have now cut back on pellets so that the nitrate is pretty stable at 10ppm and phosphates at 0.5ppm. All seems happy at that level... algae grows pretty much at the same rate the tangs eat it
will probably up the nitrate bit again when the PBT goes in in a few weeks.
OP
OP
Oops... po4 at 0.05 not 0.5... although I don't think it matters a lot!
OP
OP
New addition to 'QT'... excuse the blurriness, he won't stay still! PBT is doing well... we're at the introducing DT water and rock stage and no signs of either ich or brook... he's eating the homebrew well [emoji4]
The cleaner has come from a source known to have had ich and velvet (LFS) in the past and the systems ran copper at low levels, so we'll see what happens. Hence why I haven't been too stringent is restarting the QT process again, figured it's all a good test for the PBT!
The cleaner has come from a source known to have had ich and velvet (LFS) in the past and the systems ran copper at low levels, so we'll see what happens. Hence why I haven't been too stringent is restarting the QT process again, figured it's all a good test for the PBT!
OP
OP
Was just reading a new thread by @jasonrusso... sadly lost a tang and a h tusk during velvet treatment... seems convinced is was from another ailment brought on by the stress of going from a 220g to a 55g and in unnatural environment (bare bottom, pvc pipe etc). I've read countless posts like this and it got me to thinking... do we in fact lose more fish to treatment and the associated stress / living conditions than we do to the disease we're trying to treat? I reckon it's not far out...
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