I've come to a conclusion about LED's

[Donovan Joannes]

Some reefer like me simply do not have choice. Living in the equator with average temperature of 33C and 90% humidity dismisses MH totally unless you have tons of money running your AC. T5 bulb is expensive and generate some heat, so for some, LED is the only choice they have.

 

[Seyoz]

Yet none have seen what the Kessil AP700s can do. It's a shame that you group things together like this and generalize. It's unfair because you are missing out on the best advances in lighting to come out in years. It's ok though, not everyone is meant to be a pioneer with new technologies and who wants to spend so much money on something that hasn't "proven" its self. However I feel compelled to speak when I see all fixtures grouped together as LEDs. Who here would say that all T5s are T5s? I guess any old T5 bulb and fixture, reflector, ballast will do right? Why not, it's T5s and they are "proven". I don't have any LEDs, just the Kessil AP700.

Actually, all t5 fixtures are different; Earlier models with Ballest in Bulb's Fixture would prematurely burn out from units and ran extremely hot.
Especially Early Chinese Made T5s.

 

[JamesP]

Actually, all t5 fixtures are different; Earlier models with Ballest in Bulb's Fixture would prematurely burn out from units and ran extremely hot.
Especially Early Chinese Made T5s.

Ok i gotta ask, did you tatoo your screen name on your head like in your avatar pic?

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Ok i gotta ask, did you tatoo your screen name on your head like in your avatar pic?

Out of topic LOL!

 

[JamesP]

Yeah sorry lol. Back to the led talk.

 

[Tyler Collinske]

I totally agree I think your point about the cone shape dispersal dovetails with my opinion on LED on smaller tanks or at least tanks in a cube form factor. Your tank is beautiful BTW!

Thank you! It's coming along nicely I can't wait to see it in a year or 2 from now

 

[Reefrookie220]

Aren't you using T5 supplementation? As your frags grow into mature colonies, and self shading occurs, you will see polyp loss and paling at the base of your colonies if you only use your existing LEDs

You mean the same way it happens in the ocean? That's how the reef is built, "shadows" cause tissue recession on the bottom side, which boosts growth up top to compensate, building the reef up.

I see shadows not as an enemy, or as a bad look, I see them as natural and as an opportunity to place NPS or lower light corals for a more natural apperance.

My .02

 

[Jamie7907]

To be fair Kessils are horrible lights. They are a terrible example of what a good led fixture should be. Look at any tank that's been under kessils only and you'll see washed out corals with slow growth and users that are wowed by the shimmer thinking everything looks great with nothing to compared it too to see what the tank and corals really could look like. They are good for providing shimmer and acting in a supplemental role nothing more and the ap700 is included in that, that light had so many issues at launch I lost all respect for kessil. I agree that even with good led fixtures you typically need more than manufacturers state. I have 5 hydra 26hd's currently over a 180 with no shadowing and I still only use 450watts at max power which is 300 less than the halides they replaced. The only two leds on market that are comparable to t5 or mh are the radion g4's and the hydra 26hd's. the hydra 52hd is lackluster in its spread and I found it better to just use two hydra 26 instead of one 52, for one I get better spread and for two I get an extra 50 watts of power. The radion G4pro is hands down the best led on market right now and the spread is unbelievable, I currently have 3 7'x4' sps frag flats lit by 4 G4 pros each. Bearing in mind that none of these are large colonies the coverage is phenomenal though for larger colonies 6 lights would probably be needed and in hindsight I wish I had used the xr15pro instead of the xr30 for better control of spread. With that said I still run several tanks lit by mh and or t5. imo nothing can beat mh for growth and t5 for color, leds fill a need where power and heat issues arise but the majority of leds on the market aren't suitable for being a standalone light source for anything other than soft coral and easy lps

 

[bif24701]

I spent probably $10k on lights in the last 5 year everything from Ai hydras and radions to ATI led t5 hybrid. I was never totally happy. I finally tried a giesemann spectra with 2 400w radiums. I can finally say that my search is over. Sure Mh have their drawbacks but the light is amazing. Nothing can even come close to it.

MH do look amazing and get results. No one would even dare say otherwise. However those draw backs you speak of are some pretty big ones that many today don't want to deal with if they can help it. In fact I dare say that had MH not had some of these problem we would never consider LEDs or even T5s possibly. It is what it is.

 

[JamesP]

imo nothing can beat mh for growth and t5 for color

Then why would I want to buy the most expensive leds money can buy to replace cheap and proven t5s? I would never recover that money in power savings in the lifetime of the fixture, and you said it yourself that it wouldnt even be as good. It actually uses more power to get 2 of these over a 4ft tank than 6x t5s and costs $300 vs $1600 and i would have to spend another $125 on a wxm to make it work with my apex. It seems like a money pit just to say you are running leds only with no supplementation. Leds provide some cool effects and with a led t5 combo you get the best of both worlds for a fraction of the price.

 

[bif24701]

Then why would I want to buy the most expensive leds money can buy to replace cheap and proven t5s? I would never recover that money in power savings in the lifetime of the fixture, and you said it yourself that it wouldnt even be as good. It actually uses more power to get 2 of these over a 4ft tank than 6x t5s and costs $300 vs $1600 and i would have to spend another $125 on a wxm to make it work with my apex. It seems like a money pit just to say you are running leds only with no supplementation. Leds provide some cool effects and with a led t5 combo you get the best of both worlds for a fraction of the price.

I think that LEDs and T5s actually use about the same power.

 

[MagisterDamask]

I think that LEDs and T5s actually use about the same power.

I would say they are pretty close too, especially if the LEDs are at 100% and the cooling fans are on.

I've never put ammeter or a watthour meter on them to see for sure but I would say they were close for sure.

 

[JamesP]

The g4s say 190w at full power and i would need 2x to cover my 4ft tank. So 390w per 4ft. T5s are 54w each for 4ft so 6x t5s is 324w. So they are pretty close with 6x t5s using slightly less. I use 4x t5s and 2x kessil a360we which are 90 watts each. So my setup is 396w which is the same as 2x g4s in power. I have the shimmer of kessils and grow power of t5s and only costs half the price of the 2x g4s. I still cant justify going pure led with g4s with that crazy high price tag when t5 supplementation works just fine. Everyone agrees t5s are great.

 

[Fritzhamer]

If you factor in dimmable T5 vs LED you're probably really close in terms of electric usage.

 

[Jrco226]

I actually just got done putting in a retrofit 2 bulb t5 on my 40 gallon, WOW! I absolutely love the look of the t5s. It takes away the biggest part of shadowing away from my Kessil 360. I was planning on running the t5 from 1-6PM but I love the look so much I don't want to miss it when I'm at work.

 

[JamesP]

I actually just got done putting in a retrofit 2 bulb t5 on my 40 gallon, WOW! I absolutely love the look of the t5s. It takes away the biggest part of shadowing away from my Kessil 360. I was planning on running the t5 from 1-6PM but I love the look so much I don't want to miss it when I'm at work.

Yeah it is a spectacular look isnt it. And try with and without the kessil and youll notice the extra element the shimmer brings to the table. T5s alone just dont give that look as when combining with the kessil. Beautiful and powerful. Remember the kessil peaks at 450nm which is blue so supplement t5s with a little red in them to get a full spectrum. Corals like a little red too.

 

[JamesP]

The g4s say 190w at full power and i would need 2x to cover my 4ft tank. So 390w per 4ft. T5s are 54w each for 4ft so 6x t5s is 324w. So they are pretty close with 6x t5s using slightly less. I use 4x t5s and 2x kessil a360we which are 90 watts each. So my setup is 396w which is the same as 2x g4s in power. I have the shimmer of kessils and grow power of t5s and only costs half the price of the 2x g4s. I still cant justify going pure led with g4s with that crazy high price tag when t5 supplementation works just fine. Everyone agrees t5s are great.

Oh yeah and i was a little off on math earlier, 2x g4s is 380w. I was in a hurry, but still the point is the same.

 

[Jrco226]

Yeah it is a spectacular look isnt it. And try with and without the kessil and youll notice the extra element the shimmer brings to the table. T5s alone just dont give that look as when combining with the kessil. Beautiful and powerful. Remember the kessil peaks at 450nm which is blue so supplement t5s with a little red in them to get a full spectrum. Corals like a little red too.

What bulbs do you suggests? I currently have a ATI corals plus and blue plus.

 

[JamesP]

What bulbs do you suggests? I currently have a ATI corals plus and blue plus.

Im still working that out myself to be honest. I have 4 t5s and 2 kessils over a 4ft tank and was looking at the spectrum under my seneye and reading bulb specs. The kessil peaks at 450nm. I am currently running it with 2x ati true actinics one in front and one in back to give another peak at 425nm where the kessils lack in that low wavelength spectrum. It doesnt look bright to the human eye because most of the light is not visible to us, but corals like it. My other 2 are going to be traded out soon. I was still deciding between 2x purple+ 2x coral+ or 2x aquablue special. All 3 of those have peaks in red, but purple+ lacks the peak in green.

Green is not really used in photosynthesis. So the coral+ and aquablue special give more par because of the green peak, but par alone is not the full picture. We need to look at pur as well. Without having the bulbs in front of me to test, i am guessing when i say i bet the coral+ and aquablue special have more par but less pur because of the green component. This is turning into more of a research paper than an answer.

So im leaning toward saying you should consider 2x purple+. And same for me, but i am throwing in 2x true actinics in mine because i have 2x extra slots and want to pick up on that extra light on the low wavelength side.

People love that blue+ and aquablue special combo though, but that is for t5s alone. With a kessil we got blues covered which is why im going in a totally different direction than most people would suggest. My goal is to maximize my par and pur simultaneously while giving a nice appearance that is still on the blue side.

Again, I'm still working it out though. I just know i got plenty of blues already so im playing with spectrum as i do bulb changes. Im not running out and changing all my bulbs, just experimenting as i naturally change them. I suggest you do the same, keeping in mind kessils have plenty of blues already.

 

[JamesP]

Just stumbled across a thread saying exactly what i was stating above.

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/100170/

So my kessils mixed with 2x true actinics and 2x purple+ is the perfect combo to hit the blues, violets, and reds+yellows respectively. Good, because i sure would have not been happy if i typed that last post for nothing. Also confirms that greens do nothing except increase par and change the look to the human eye. Increasing par via greens does nothing useful though except make the par meter say something bigger. Pur is just as important or your just wasting power on the wrong color light.