I've come to a conclusion about LED's
- Thread starter Scorpius
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I assume that's what happen.
I am just playing devils advocate. LED fixtures can not all be grouped into "LEDs" when commenting on things like spread and shadowing. It may not look it but the Kessil AP700 far exceeds others in reduced shadowing, and add the lenses and can be even better. So my point was that.
Yes it is a single point light source. That was the intent. So are MH. However it also has great spread, coverage, and illumination (reduced shadows).
So my point is that not all fit into that category that we make and its characteristics, "LEDs".
MH with a 2'x2' reflector can also have reduced shadows yet single point source shimmer. Not everything fits into neat little boxes.
Yet even for them, and for you for that matter, it is not sufficient enough to be the only source of lighting in their feature show piece tank and your DT... that, in and of itself speaks volumes and highlights the clear line between marketing hype and practical application.
To your point above, I wouldn't fit all point source lighting into a "neat little box" either. MH, with the exception of their sockets, provide a 360 degree source of light, which is why proper reflectors play such a big role and why as a point source light, it can absolutely be the only source of light in a mature all SPS tank. In fact the only reason you see supplementation with MH is because back in the day, we only had 6500k and 10,000k MH bulbs, so actinic supplementation was necessary for purely aesthetic reasons. LEDs on the other hand, AP700s included, is at best a 120 degree source of light. That is why no matter what lenses, reflectors or hyped up gimmicks manufactures come up with for LEDs, by virtue of how they emit light, you'll still need more pucks to overcome shadowing issues.
My standard 4' long 75G tank is on LED and the coverage is quite good with no visible shadowing. One of my tabling SPS roughly 4" across still kicking, even the underside portion does have polyp and color. Tightly clustered or puck design LED fixtures are susceptible to shadowing effects due to narrow light spread. Matrix arrangements offers the best coverage but spacing is crucial to eliminate disco effects.
You are very wrong here. Assuming because I wish to have benefits of both indicates that LEDs are subpar effective coral growing machines? If anything I would not have to say is that. I didn't add T5s because my LEFs didn't work, I added them because I wanted them. Same reason people are choosing to add LEDs to T5s or MH. The logic here is flawed because they are more than capable and as I stated before I don't like the flat look of T5. LEDs get it done.
I am not at all saying that LEDs are subpar growing machines. Clearly, there are very effective and successful all LED SPS systems out there, I'm not denying that. To me, what is clear is that you need many more puck style LED fixtures than the manufacturers advertise for shadow reduction... again, shadowing and coverage are two different things. Because of how expensive it is to run so many fixtures to combat the shadowing issue, the best and most economical solution to fix this IMO is T5 supplementation.
Sure, you can do a single fixture like an SB Reeflights or Reefbreeders where shadowing is reduced because diodes are spread over the entire panel of the fixture, but then you have color banding problems and disco effect, which is a whole different conversation.
Sure, you can do a single fixture like an SB Reeflights or Reefbreeders where shadowing is reduced because diodes are spread over the entire panel of the fixture, but then you have color banding problems and disco effect, which is a whole different conversation.
I can say without any doubt and I'm sure others can confirm that the G4 and the AP700 with the lens technology and Kessils added reflectors have virtually eliminated the shadowing problems that other have.
I have been able to show with a PAR meter and later BRS confirmed that light bouncing off the interior glass can add significant to the PAR/PUR.
Look at this picture. My Sunset monti here has a portion that is completely shaded from direct light. Yet this area is growing just as colorful and vigorous as the rest. In person you can't tell any difference, only a photo reveals that this area is more dim because it doesn't appear shaded at all. It's actually pretty deep inside that rock.
Aren't you using T5 supplementation? As your frags grow into mature colonies, and self shading occurs, you will see polyp loss and paling at the base of your colonies if you only use your existing LEDs. Of course, your Blue Plus bulbs will go a long way toward alleviating that problem, which I think is the entire point of the OP's discussion.
OP
OP
Scorpius
2500 Club Member
The other complaint I have is the high end led units that spread their diodes over the entire panel cost an arm and a leg to purchase. I don't have $2k to spend on lighting. I know reef lights are a niche market but $700 +/- for a single unit is insane. I can justify many things in this hobby, but getting taken for that much money is wrong in my opinion.
I like the Orphek lighting but man are they expensive.
I like the Orphek lighting but man are they expensive.
I have 4x t5s on dimmable ballasts and 2x kessil a360w leds on a 48×24×24 tank and ive done lots of playing with the options they give me. I also use a seneye on a stick for par and spectrum measurements so it is not just my eyes as my measurement tool. My tank is 24" deep which is on the deep side so light has a hard time getting to the bottom.
The kessils by themselves look the best to the naked eye. Shimmer and color are amazing and the corals really pop. According to the par meter though, i cant even get 100 at the sand. I know kessil claims par meters dont work well with their leds, but i dont believe there is some witchcraft in their lights making them better than the raw numbers tell me. They are visually stunning, but underperform with par and have shadowing due to the point source light.
T5s by themselves do get over 100 at the sand, and shadowing is practically nonexistent, but shimmer is also nonexistent. The corals liked it more im sure, but it just doesnt look as good.
Now when i turn them both on at 100% intensity something magical happens. I get 150 par at the sandbed, shadowing is gone, and shimmer is back but maybe just slightly reduced. If i turn one kessil on and one off half of the tank has shimmer and it makes a good comparison. The side with shimmer looks so much better than the one without. T5s alone look much duller without shimmer.
So my advice is go hybrid. You get the best of both worlds. If you had to go with just one technology maybe t5s are the best for coral health. Leds look better to the naked eye though.
The kessils are blue heavy so supplement your t5s with something besides blue imo. Im using 2x true actinics to peak at 425nm. Kessils peak at 450nm so they fill that low side well. Now im going to trade my other 2 t5s for something that peaks a bit on the reds. Maybe coral+ or purple+. Maybe even aquabluespecial. What im saying is blues look great, but corals need other colors too and the kessils have the blues covered. Im using the spectrum measurements if the seneye to read this btw.
The kessils by themselves look the best to the naked eye. Shimmer and color are amazing and the corals really pop. According to the par meter though, i cant even get 100 at the sand. I know kessil claims par meters dont work well with their leds, but i dont believe there is some witchcraft in their lights making them better than the raw numbers tell me. They are visually stunning, but underperform with par and have shadowing due to the point source light.
T5s by themselves do get over 100 at the sand, and shadowing is practically nonexistent, but shimmer is also nonexistent. The corals liked it more im sure, but it just doesnt look as good.
Now when i turn them both on at 100% intensity something magical happens. I get 150 par at the sandbed, shadowing is gone, and shimmer is back but maybe just slightly reduced. If i turn one kessil on and one off half of the tank has shimmer and it makes a good comparison. The side with shimmer looks so much better than the one without. T5s alone look much duller without shimmer.
So my advice is go hybrid. You get the best of both worlds. If you had to go with just one technology maybe t5s are the best for coral health. Leds look better to the naked eye though.
The kessils are blue heavy so supplement your t5s with something besides blue imo. Im using 2x true actinics to peak at 425nm. Kessils peak at 450nm so they fill that low side well. Now im going to trade my other 2 t5s for something that peaks a bit on the reds. Maybe coral+ or purple+. Maybe even aquabluespecial. What im saying is blues look great, but corals need other colors too and the kessils have the blues covered. Im using the spectrum measurements if the seneye to read this btw.
OP
OP
Scorpius
2500 Club Member
I'm running four Blue+ right now and I'll probably end up trying some other bulb combo's down the road. If the T5's are a success on my system I may go with a ATI sunpower as my main lighting and use my 360we's on the ends for supplementation/sunrise/sunset.
So dont make fun of the mess in my hood. Im redoing the doser pumps and went to bed before finishing so its a tubing disaster. Anyway, this is how mine are installed. Its a t5 retrifit kit from brs with kessils in the middle sides. Im using an articulating mount for the kessils from a 3rd party vendor. Its morning still so the t5s and kessils are rising in intensity. I love the dimmable t5 ballasts. Have them hooked to apex along with kessils.
happyhourhero
Burner of the Tips
I'm over here with my cheap black boxes going pew pew pew into your thread.
AdamNC
Lawnmower Blenny says nom nom
I believe running 1 led puck per square foot. It might be overkill but shadowing is kept at a minimum. Currently I'm running a Maxspect R420r 160w 16k which has 3 pucks over a 30" x 12" footprint (29gallon standard).
I didn't. When we built the canopy, I wanted the radions to sit just above the tubes rather than flush with them. I did this because I wanted the radions away from the heat. My t5 tubes are about 9" AWL and the radions are around 13" AWL. The intensity stayed the same but the radions were raised from their previous 8" AWL. I actually think I can bump them up higher but I'm going to wait and see. The tubes are running for 7 hours during my peak radion schedule using a modified and extended AB+ schedule.
Yes, the 360s are lacking the punch for deeper tanks. They are however what, 5 year old models, older?
I'm not even going to get into how much PAR the AP700 CAN do, I'll just say that at 70% I have 200+ PAR @sandbed, EVERYWHERE. 24" deep tank, 1" bed, mounted 8-9" from water. Corners, ends, sides. Measures via Neptune PMK.
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