Ivermectin for The Removal of Spionids

[bexlc]

Summary:
Ivermectin paste (1.87%) was successfully used to remove Spionid worms from an infested acro.

Context:
At the time of the trial, the acro was already so heavily infested with spionids that the likely hood of survival was already extremely low. The acro never showed any polyp extension, response, or growth during the infestation. Under the premise that I expected it to die anyway, I did a trial using over-the-counter Ivermectin to remove the worms.

Proceedure:
I did not have any ethanol on hand and Ivermectin is not water soluble. With that in mind, I put a glob roughly equivalent to a tablespoon into roughly 3 cups of saltwater and stirred vigorously to try to suspend the ivermectin molecules in solution. I then put the acro frag into the solution for approximately 20 minutes. Using tongs, I grabbed the frag plug and whisked the frag in the water to increase ivermectin exposure to the underlying worms. After approximately 20 minutes, I rinsed the frag in fresh saltwater using the same whisking technique. Using fast centripetal motions, worms could be seen being pulled out of their holes during the whisking process. I used tweezers to pull some of the worms from their holes. I repeated this, back and forth from the ivermectin dip to the rinse several times until I could no longer find any worms.

Conclusion:
The process appears to be successful, however, the process itself could be extremely strenuous on a more fragile frag. It is also uncertain whether the frag will survive. It has been placed back into the qt tank for further inspection. It is likely that the frag will die anyway due to the rate of infestation prior to the dip.

 

[jsker]

Thank you for the post!!

 

[C. Eymann]

Very interesting and looks like you had some promising results!

How much paste did you use exactly? was it a flavored paste like they sell for horses?

Thanks! and bravo for experimenting and sharing !

 

[DesertReefT4r]

Vet gave me Ivermectin to treat my acroz for red budgs and it was very effective.

 

[Holst]

How did it go with the frag @bexlc ?

 

[Reefahholic]

Did this work???

Coral Boring Spionid Worms- Anybody Killed them?

These turds have survived Bayer, Coral RX Pro, KCI, and Exodus dip. They apparently retract into their tubes, and back into the coral skeleton where they apparently are safe from the medications. Below I will post some pictures for reference. The first pic is mine, but the others are just...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Reefahholic]

The coral boring Spionid I’ve see aren’t nearly as big. They stunt corals bad, especially smaller frags. I’ve seen them by the thousands on the edge of the rocks. They love to get at the base of the corals first, but often move in closer to the coral. As they multiply in one area and continue to move inward, some can get inside the actual skelton and the real damage begins.

I’ve seen them in many tanks. Reef Builders had them in the studio tanks. Many others here I won’t name, but they seem to be common. People just don’t know they have them. The best way to know is to get a flash light and look at night on the edge of the rocks. You’ll see their two little tentacles sticking out, but you have to really look closely. I have a Walt Disney completely stunted out, and most reefers would likely never know it, because they’re so tiny. They would just think the acros are not growing well or being slow to grow. The frag will keep PE and color most of the time until the worms burrow so much that it starts to kill it. That is why they’re so hard to notice. If you have the bigger species it’s better, but they’re much easier to deal with a kill. The tiny stealth like species is really a PITA.

Here’s what the smaller guys look like. Sent straight from Satan himself. Notice this WD acros is already stunted, and been the same size for over a year. You can’t grow well when you have worms inside you.


ZOOM-IN CLOSE ON THIS PIC BELOW. You’ll see the two tiny tentacles.

Here’s a photo from @Biologic This is why they stunt out and what’s going on inside the skeleton.

If they’re in the base it’s usually ok for a long time. If you scrape them they dive into the rocks and just come back later in the exact same spots. I thought that maybe they were only boring straight up into the bases of the corals from living in the rocks (which they do also), but I put some corals on hard ceramic plugs and they still get into the bases. So they must be crawling around or microscopically “floating around” with the flow after they divide or hatch and float into corals also. Not sure which one it is. I have a feeling they’re probably doing both, because they at all the edges of even the highest rocks. I tried pill form ivermectin, but that was a fail because it was not water soluble at all. Next will be liquid, but the problem is that nobody seems to know a good dose. I’ll have to experiment with that. I’d love to treat the entire tank with something like interceptor, but I’m unsure if that would get them. I may need to play with that also outside the tank to see if it will possibly work.

 

[Reefahholic]

After they become larger and begin to multiply, they look like this. This Stag has not stunted at all, because none of them are in the actual Skelton. They’re all in the outer base.

 

[Reefahholic]

Here you can see they stunted the LF side of this pink acro, and they’re also all in this orange Digi and have it completely stunted out. Zoom-in on the pic and you can see them well. I only highlighted a few areas. Note the color of the orange Digi as well compared to the acro. It’s very pale and just looks awful. Digi is a fast growing vigorous coral. Obviously the worms are really taking a toll on it.

 

[JCOLE]

I am willing to be a guinea pig for a full-in-the-tank experiment. The tank is 500 gallons full of Acropora.

I have a ton of these worms and while most corals are good growers, some barely grow. I believe it is because of the worms.

I also have a ton of microbrittle starfish that I would like to remove.

Before I do this, I want to come up with a game plan instead of just dumping and praying.

What would be a good dosing schedule using 50-ml bottles? How long should I leave the medication in the system before performing water changes?

 

[Reefahholic]

I have a ton of these worms and while most corals are good growers, some barely grow. I believe it is because of the worms.

Absolutely, especially if they’re in the skeleton (main structure of the coral).

What would be a good dosing schedule using 50-ml bottles? How long should I leave the medication in the system before performing water changes?

So I’ve been doing about 9 drops now to 473mL via 1cc syringe for 1 hour. A drop is typically counted anywhere from .03-.05 mL. 1 hr usually gets them all. Rarely I’ll have one surviver. All the Acro's I’ve dipped do really well. Haven’t had a problem yet with anything. Seems just as gentle as Bayer or KCI. They always have great PE after the dip especially if the worms were affecting them. My suggestion would be to stick with that dose and since the tank is already temp controlled leave the medication in longer. My 2-3 hrs, but watch the corals. My concern is oxygenation and massive die off. Remove all the fish if possible. I would trap them (if possible), and get them into a separate QT tank if possible, and only reintroduce later after doing water changes and running carbon. For sure ivermectin kills fish, but we don’t know why yet. Either oxygenation or the dose needed to kill the worms is lethal. However, they may not need a large dose. Maybe a tiny dose over several days or weeks would have the same effect.

If you’re really going to go for it…try to remove as much life as possible. Snails, worms, clams, fish, crabs, and everything that will likely die so that the ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate spike will not be as severe. Read through the other thread as it’s got some really good information in there.

Other thread about Interceptor and Ivermectin:

Safe Interceptor Dose | Coral Boring Spionid Worms.

Hello… I have been experimenting with different treatment options for Coral Boring Spionid Worms. I did not realize there was a worm that could tick me off more than Vermetid snails. When I finally kept the Vermetid’s out (100%), I’m so blessed to discover these little devils. Pic unknown...

www.reef2reef.com

You’ll want to have the water change water ready. Definitely have a good siphon hose ready with filter socks/cups down in the sump that you can siphon all the dead crap into (while the system is running) and remove before it breaks down. Having a lot of buckets and stuff ready would be smart. Have carbon ready to go. I’m unsure if Ivermectin is killing off some of the bacterial population, but the frags I dip show really nice PE afterwards (even those with very few worms only in the base). So it could be killing off some undesirable bacteria on the tissue or in the water column. Not sure. The reason why I mention that is because if Ivermectin “doesn’t” kill bacteria, it’s probably a good Idea to dose something like One and Only, Turbo Start, MB7, Waste Away, etc…about 4-6 hrs in to help mitigate the spike from all the death that will occur. The corals should be fine as long as you avoid a large nutrient swing or ammonia spike. It’s gonna kill a ton of stuff (especially in your 500/G), but will not kill the corals itself- if thought out well. It’s been really gentle on corals. I have not had any loose color or anything, but I haven’t gone past the dose above or keep them in longer than 1 hour.

As far as an air-stone running or skimmer running with cup off I’m not exactly sure if that will reduce the effectiveness or pull out some of the medication. For sure the skimmer will overflow, so definitely clean it and dump it before you start. Keep the cup off if you run the skimmer.
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Here’s what you’ll be facing…


Ivermectin In-Tank Treatment


khiann
Posted July 9, 2014
*
I have been fighting with Red Bugs and AEFW for 8 months. Tried out of tank dipping with iodine, coral dip and garlic(pills and fresh squash). With these treatment, both bugs came off and sps recover for 1 - 2 weeks, however, they come back with even stronger number of army. Losses many precious species of SPS due do this. I found that I have 2 type of red-bug(one red, one slightly larger but grey in color) and AEFW. The one does the most damage is red bugs. SPS will have the polyps retract, discolored and bite marks shown very quickly.

One thing to take note for the community, if you are buying wild/cultured sps from the local LFS, I can almost assure you will get either one of it if you never do any quarantine/dip. You will think that the sps didn't manage to survive in your tank condition but, to me, 90% of my sps death is due to this. It will start with polyp retracted, might NOT get discolor or turn brown. The base of the SPS will start minor flesh retract. If you never notice close enough, you will have small white spots of bite mark when infestion is long enough.

I decided enough is enough, decided to try Ivermectin 1% with the tank since some of the document on internet show it is effective on "both" the bugs. I was having difficulty getting the med from local vet, until I get it from somewhere(pm me if you need). It is a water soluble based of ivermectin for horse injection. 1%. WARNING, this is a very strong chemical to both human and animals. It will KILL all brittle star, snails, prawn, even small fish and small clams. Good thing is, some of the unwanted pest worm also get killed in the action. I did the full tank treatment with xtreme care. I will not be responsible for naything happen to your tank.

Treatment for my 4x2x1.5 tank with 4x1.5x1.5 sump. with 22 species of sensitive and hardy sps. with 3 soft coral and a few zoas, one bubble anemone

6pm, I prepare fresh replacement salt water enough for 70% water change. Exact salinity, ca and KH, same temperature.

8pm, I dose 15ML of the ivermectin by mixing with the tank water in a container, then pour into the sump. Turn off both of my skimmer and tank out all carbon.

802pm, all my sps polyp retracted, including monti and BN. Clams shuts. Massive bubbles forms in the sumps area.

805pm. all snail, acro crab and some unknown bugs running for life, sps start to slimes

815pm. good amount of red bug and AEFW clinging on slimes string created on sps

830pm. all small snail and crab is no longer moving, all the pest worms and brittle stars floating around in the water. Try to remove as much as I can with fine hole net. My heart almost stop seeing the condition of the tank. No white cloud created in the water though.

9pm. similar, except the sps polyp came back and clams open slightly. Massive amount of pest dead. Small fish including little nemo stunt, laying but breathing on tank bottom.

10pm, turned on all skimmers and carbon. Skimmers immediately overflow like crazy, I drain the skimmers overflow directly into the toilet. Close monitor every 15 minutes and replace the water lost with fresh water.

11pm, SPS came back like magic with better than before polyp extension. soft and hard coral is not affected at all. anemone too.

2am, almost 1/4 of water over flown and replaced.

4am, skimmer come back to normal, went to sleep

8am, replace new carbon, clean skimmer neck, replace the remaining 20% of water. coral status quo

2nd day passed, slightly higher NO3 noticed, 10ppm higher, came down in a few days. SPS does not seems to be affected, Zero coral casualty. All crabs and worms are gone, together with the pest. notice zero of it on the coral

3rd day, clams and fish all recovered

8th day, 10ML dose with similar procedure. This time no more massive death occur, prob all dead in the first dose.

16th day, 8ML dose


One month passed, I have zero pest in the tank, including AEFW! The sps rebound with extremely fast growth and polyp extension, much better color too. Will take picture too.. just a sharing for the folks, becareful with the treatment though. I think the water change make a different and didn't lead the treatment to tank crash.

 

[Reefahholic]

FYI…

The dose I’m currently using for the frags is 8-9 drops to 473mL which is 1/8 of a gallon or 1 pint.

1 gallon = 3,785.41 approximately

If you divide 3785.41 by 8 = 473.17mL. Hence the 473mL volume I dip in.

If we count 1 drop as 0.4mL (middle of the road), and multiply that by 8….we get 3.2mL.

So my dose is 3.2 mL of 1% Ivermectin per gallon or 8-9 drops per 473mL if my math is correct.

This would equate to 320mL of 1% Ivermectin per 100 gallon water volume to kill them all dead in 1 hour. This is a crazy high dose. I have seen them sell 250mL bottle’s for about $70. It will cost you some money, but may pay off.

A 220 lb cow would only get 2mL so keep that in mind. It may be better to take the slow approach, but then you have no idea if it will work for sure or not.

One thing I keep thinking about is that once the major die off is gone, you can treat the next couple times like it’s nothing if needed before you return the fish. I’d absolutely love to smoke all the limpet’s in my system and the stupid worms.

 

[Reefahholic]

@Battlecorals

 

[JCOLE]

FYI…

The dose I’m currently using for the frags is 8-9 drops to 473mL which is 1/8 of a gallon or 1 pint.

1 gallon = 3,785.41 approximately

If you divide 3785.41 by 8 = 473.17mL. Hence the 473mL volume I dip in.

If we count 1 drop as 0.4mL (middle of the road), and multiply that by 8….we get 3.2mL.

So my dose is 3.2 mL of 1% Ivermectin per gallon or 8-9 drops per 473mL if my math is correct.

This would equate to 320mL of 1% Ivermectin per 100 gallon water volume to kill them all dead in 1 hour. This is a crazy high dose. I have seen them sell 250mL bottle’s for about $70. It will cost you some money, but may pay off.

A 220 lb cow would only get 2mL so keep that in mind. It may be better to take the slow approach, but then you have no idea if it will work for sure or not.

One thing I keep thinking about is that once the major die off is gone, you can treat the next couple times like it’s nothing if needed before you return the fish. I’d absolutely love to smoke all the limpet’s in my system and the stupid worms.

I am going to start with the small dose first. Reading what the other guy did with his system, it sounds like he dosed 15 ml for 150 gallons of his system water, which is around 10 ml per 100 gallons. This is what I was originally thinking. I have a 50-ml bottle and figured one bottle would treat the entire display at that dosage.

My plan so far is to shut off return pumps and dump the bottle in the display. Turn all the wavemakers on high to mix up the solution. I would leave the return pumps off for an hour to observe the tank. If massive die-off starts to take place, then I will turn the return pumps on sooner. I am thinking of leaving the pumps off for an hour. Turn everything back on for another hour, then turn the skimmer on for a water change and add carbon.

It sounds like ivermectin works fast if he notices that die off within 10 minutes. One of my concerns was how long to leave in the tank.

Does anyone know if ivermectin reacts to light the same way Cipro does?

My other concern is the volume of water for water changes. I can only make 50 gallons at a time. What I was thinking was to perform a 50-gallon (10%) water change daily for a week after dosing.

The next thing would be a second and possibly a third treatment. Should I run one treatment, then hit the system again at 2 and 3 weeks like the other guy?

Also, removing the fish is out of the question. I will remove all of the snails and hermit crabs as best I can but the rest will have to remain during the treatment.

 

[Reefahholic]

it sounds like he dosed 15 ml for 150 gallons of his system water

I think his was about 90 if I calculated it correctly. He said 4’x2’x1.5’ or 48x24x18.

I am going to start with the small dose first.

Probably a smart move. Maybe try just 1mL at a time and keep watching the tank.

It sounds like ivermectin works fast if he notices that die off within 10 minutes. One of my concerns was how long to leave in the tank.

Very fast.

Does anyone know if ivermectin reacts to light the same way Cipro does?

I asked the same question, but I don’t think anybody knows.

The next thing would be a second and possibly a third treatment. Should I run one treatment, then hit the system again at 2 and 3 weeks like the other guy?

If you make it past the 1st, the 2nd and 3rd should be easy. All the die off is initially.

Also, removing the fish is out of the question. I will remove all of the snails and hermit crabs as best I can but the rest will have to remain during the treatment.

It will kill the fish unless you get really lucky like that guy, but if you go with a smaller treatment it may be tolerable for them. I’m
Still trying to figure out if they’re dying from toxicity or oxygen depletion. If you know anybody that has a dissolved oxygen meter plz test it out. Could be both. If I were to do it, I’d leave my skimmer running with the cup off and all the pumps running.

 

[Reefahholic]

If you guys aren’t subscribed to JCOLE, plz go sub this man on YouTube. This will be crazy. 500/G monster. You don’t have a frag you can test on first. Did you see what @Sisterlimonpot’s friend said. It killed most or all of his fish.

 

[tnw50cal]

I am going to start with the small dose first. Reading what the other guy did with his system, it sounds like he dosed 15 ml for 150 gallons of his system water, which is around 10 ml per 100 gallons. This is what I was originally thinking. I have a 50-ml bottle and figured one bottle would treat the entire display at that dosage.

My plan so far is to shut off return pumps and dump the bottle in the display. Turn all the wavemakers on high to mix up the solution. I would leave the return pumps off for an hour to observe the tank. If massive die-off starts to take place, then I will turn the return pumps on sooner. I am thinking of leaving the pumps off for an hour. Turn everything back on for another hour, then turn the skimmer on for a water change and add carbon.

It sounds like ivermectin works fast if he notices that die off within 10 minutes. One of my concerns was how long to leave in the tank.

Does anyone know if ivermectin reacts to light the same way Cipro does?

My other concern is the volume of water for water changes. I can only make 50 gallons at a time. What I was thinking was to perform a 50-gallon (10%) water change daily for a week after dosing.

The next thing would be a second and possibly a third treatment. Should I run one treatment, then hit the system again at 2 and 3 weeks like the other guy?

Also, removing the fish is out of the question. I will remove all of the snails and hermit crabs as best I can but the rest will have to remain during the treatment.

Did you try this, did it work? Update?

 

[tnw50cal]

Well I did the ivermectin dip on a frag for spionid worms. I followed Reefahholic's directions with just a couple of changes. I used 20 drops of 1% ivermectin to 1 pint of water(he uses 8-9 drops). I used a 2.5 gallon tank with a Aquaclear 70 HOB filter with bag of rox 0.8 carbon for the after dip and left the frag in there for 18 hours before returning to main display tank( he does this for 24 hours). Everything else was done just like Reefahholic including using bleach to deactivate the ivermectin before pouring it down the drain.
This WORKED 100% in killing spionid worms. Frag ,TCK solarbeam tenuis, is just fine with no negative effects from treatment.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Well I did the ivermectin dip on a frag for spionid worms. I followed Reefahholic's directions with just a couple of changes. I used 20 drops of 1% ivermectin to 1 pint of water(he uses 8-9 drops). I used a 2.5 gallon tank with a Aquaclear 70 HOB filter with bag of rox 0.8 carbon for the after dip and left the frag in there for 18 hours before returning to main display tank( he does this for 24 hours). Everything else was done just like Reefahholic including using bleach to deactivate the ivermectin before pouring it down the drain.
This WORKED 100% in killing spionid worms. Frag ,TCK solarbeam tenuis, is just fine with no negative effects from treatment.

For future reference, do you have any close-up pics of some of the tubes and some of the worms outside of the tubes?

I ask because it could potentially be useful for figuring out if different genera in the family have different reactions to ivermectin (i.e. if some die from it but others live, knowing which live and which die could potentially help with future treatments).

 

[tnw50cal]

No sorry no pictures.