Just About to Stock my 5 Gallon With Acros but Had a Fish Die and Major Ammonia Spike...New Live Ocean Rock?

[livinlifeinBKK]

Unfortunately I had a fish die in my 5 gallon nano earlier this week and it triggered a chain reaction because of the toxic ammonia released. I've got it under control now but since I'm planning on stocking it with Acros next week I want to have the microbiome on my side with live ocean rock and worried the VERY high ammonia may have killed off a good bit of healthy microorganisms. Should I but a few new pieces of live rock straight from the ocean to replenish a little before adding the Acros?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@Timfish @Kasrift

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

It gave me peace of mind so I got a few new pieces. I can't help myself sometime. Literally straight out of the ocean surrounding Indonesia to the shop to me probably within less than a week. No curing necessary. I buy way too much of this stuff!

 

[taricha]

For my curiosity what fish, how big, and what did your ammonia spike up to?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

For my curiosity what fish, how big, and what did your ammonia spike up to?

I don't have an ammonia test kit because I haven't needed one for so long but it was definitely significant because it caused a chain reaction. I was sold a fish who appeared to maybe have ammonia poisoning or just needed oxygen when it arrived so I put it in an isolation box. Overnight it jumped out and died. I had to leave early in the morning and didn't notice. The other fish was a splendid dottyback and a barnacle blenny along with a very small pipefish I was going to later transfer. It's under control now that I've done several water changes. All fish were at most 2 inches probably smaller.

 

[Timfish]

Hard to say but ammonia is a food source for a lot of stuff. Your system might not have had much of a spike and from what you've described there could be other explanations (commonality doesn't necessarily mean causality). Generally though, I see adding more live rock as a good thing. PaulB adds stuff from tidepools on a regular basis. I've expierimented a long time ago with stuff from the coast but being 3-4 hours it was inconvenient but I'm rethinking that as my understanding of microbiomes expands.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hard to say but ammonia is a food source for a lot of stuff. Your system might not have had much of a spike and from what you've described there could be other explanations (commonality doesn't necessarily mean causality). Generally though, I see adding more live rock as a good thing. PaulB adds stuff from tidepools on a regular basis. I've expierimented a long time ago with stuff from the coast but being 3-4 hours it was inconvenient but I'm rethinking that as my understanding of microbiomes expands.

I decided to add additional fresh rock...if you mean your uncertainty regarding the microbiome of a temperate area of the ocean vs a tropical are, I'd be skeptical at this point myself since the microbiome is so sensitive. In my case though it's straight out of Indonesia to my tank probably within a week or less.

 

[Timfish]

My uncertaintly when I said "Generally though, I see adding more . . ." I was thinking of how much rock is already in a system, adding more orock might mean removing some to keep the desired aesthetic an/or leave room for coral growth. Seeing PaulB's success adding stuff from tidepools in New York I'm thinking it may be beneficial to take a day a couple times a year to run to the coast to collect some sand to help maintain more natural microbiomes. I see your adding more live rock as definitely beneficial but not strictly necessary.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

My uncertaintly when I said "Generally though, I see adding more . . ." I was thinking of how much rock is already in a system, adding more orock might mean removing some to keep the desired aesthetic an/or leave room for coral growth. Seeing PaulB's success adding stuff from tidepools in New York I'm thinking it may be beneficial to take a day a couple times a year to run to the coast to collect some sand to help maintain more natural microbiomes. I see your adding more live rock as definitely beneficial but not strictly necessary.

I absolutely agree that there has to be a limit to having "enough" live rock. I'm just concerned very high ammonia may have killed off some bacterial strains which are more sensitive since they wouldn't naturally encounter that in an oligotrophic Reef. I have no clue how many bacterial strains or individual bacteria could have been affected.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@Timfish possibly none, possibly many important strains for sensitive corals like Acropora. It's $5 per piece of any shape they have so the benefits seem worth the risk. If by chance they were important for those sensitive corals that wouycost me More than a few pieces of $5 rock that honestly are very beautiful.

 

[Troylee]

Either way it’s not gonna affect acros as people nowadays dose ammonia to their tanks instead of nitrates cause corals can consume the food source easier… it would only play a role in fish if indeed it spiked. I’d guess the rock had die off and spiked your tank more than a dead fish.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Either way it’s not gonna affect acros as people nowadays dose ammonia to their tanks instead of nitrates cause corals can consume the food source easier… it would only play a role in fish if indeed it spiked. I’d guess the rock had die off and spiked your tank more than a dead fish.

No, pretty sure it was the fish as I've bought many pieces of this rock for years. I disagree that the low doses of ammonia people dose are equal to an unknown amount of ammonia from multiple fish dying causing very cloudy water. Ammonia is actually pretty toxic and not all bacteria can handle high levels, especially if they aren't ever exposed to those levels in their natural environment
If you dumped the whole bottle of ammonia in, I don't think you'd have corals tomorrow.

 

[Timfish]

We're getting into a bunch of hypotheticals but I would point out at least part of the microbiomes specific for acropora aren't going to be promoted until acros are added.

For those reading this Livinlifeinbkk and I have discussed microbiomes in other posts so for us this is a bit of a continuation. To summorize or give some back ground here's some important discoveries and research:

Species microbiomes are unique. Two corals next to each other but different species will have different microbiomes while two specimens of the same species sperated by kilometers will have the same microbiomes. (See Rower's book "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" ebook ~$9).

Microbiomes in the water column differ from the microbomes in corals and are influenced by corals. Walsh, et al

Immune systems vary at the genotype level, not the species level. Wright, et al

Some corals can only be found in association with sibling species. Besides numerous examples in J. E. N Veron's books here's a specific writeup for Strawberry Shortcake acro

Microbiomes in the water column are dynamic (and turbidity can't be used as an indcator of a bacterial bloom). Georgia Aquarium

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

We're getting into a bunch of hypotheticals but I would point out at least part of the microbiomes specific for acropora aren't going to be promoted until acros are added.

For those reading this Livinlifeinbkk and I have discussed microbiomes in other posts so for us this is a bit of a continuation. To summorize or give some back ground here's some important discoveries and research:

Species microbiomes are unique. Two corals next to each other but different species will have different microbiomes while two specimens of the same species sperated by kilometers will have the same microbiomes. (See Rower's book "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" ebook ~$9).

Microbiomes in the water column differ from the microbomes in corals and are influenced by corals. Walsh, et al

Immune systems vary at the genotype level, not the species level. Wright, et al

Some corals can only be found in association with sibling species. Besides numerous examples in J. E. N Veron's books here's a specific writeup for Strawberry Shortcake acro

Microbiomes in the water column are dynamic (and turbidity can't be used as an indcator of a bacterial bloom). Georgia Aquarium

As we've discussed, it only gets more complicated! Haha

 

[Troylee]

No, pretty sure it was the fish as I've bought many pieces of this rock for years. I disagree that the low doses of ammonia people dose are equal to an unknown amount of ammonia from multiple fish dying causing very cloudy water. Ammonia is actually pretty toxic and not all bacteria can handle high levels, especially if they aren't ever exposed to those levels in their natural environment
If you dumped the whole bottle of ammonia in, I don't think you'd have corals tomorrow.

Agreed! But you said “ A “ fish died… you didn’t say multiple and the tank clouded.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Agreed! But you said “ A “ fish died… you didn’t say multiple and the tank clouded.

Sorry, yes...it created a sort of domino-effect due to the small tank and the fact that I assume it happened during the night and since I leave early on the morning I didn't see the tank until late afternoon. I know what you mean though. A little ammonia isn't any problem. This was just an atypical case.