Insane Ammonia Spike.. 8.0 +

[brandon429]

you will have to choose between old and new cycling science, that's a rough choice agreed due to conflicting views between the two paradigms. reading that linked example thread w help in pattern though to ease concern about what these test kits do. 90% of people in that thread had the same concerns you did

but, you can also click on their name/select find all posts/ and see every update their tank ever had after I made a call on it during the time in that thread. you will see: not one single crash, no losses, this reinforces the updated cycling science mode in my opinion.

--I don’t know what the source would be. Nothing died. Nothing entered the tank. Nothing was touched or changed.

that's the critical detail for sure. that's why you can rest easy knowing this wasn't ammonia.

that tank above is back to clear; it can be used now.

if it acts up again post the pics here before any action taken and we can guide it accurately. this was a misread + action event for sure.

any study of the provided example link of false reads also has this recurring pattern: added a little prime

that affects reading accuracy. the right mode original was to take no action based on ammonia, never use Prime in reefing, throw it out (see chem forum threads why you won't use it/search em)

prime does nothing to help you in reefing, its a sham product. if you did have a real ammonia event caused by dead and rotting animals, it would not have helped.

 

[Garf]

no worries, i apologize im having trouble navigating this website and i see now that im on web that my replies are getting all jumbled.

I will test all systems for chlorine. if chloramine is still present in the water, are you suggesting the chloramine is what is harming this fish& coral? or just that the chloramine is what's causing the positive test result?

For the latter, I just dont understand why the chloramine would not result in a false positive for any of the other tanks. On this tank specifically, we do bi-weekly water changes. On most other tanks, we do weekly. Meaning this tank has had significantly less "contaminated water" entering it. Our touch tank, for example, gets 600+ gallon water changes a week with potentially "contaminated water".. it just does not make sense to me why that tank wouldn't have a false positive.

Als

Don't suppose you've got a seachem ammonia alert badge hanging around? They indicate the free harmful ammonia quite reliably.

Edit - did you turn the pumps off for the photo? Have you checked the heater is working properly?

 

[bribosaurus]

that's true agreed. only new cycling science can contest a test reading this way; we have all been trained solely on old cycling science that says to believe a kit, and take action, no matter what outside of any context or study or counter challenge at all.

its a slow evolution process for sure

that tank doesn't have a real spike though, it's able to be put right back into use. I hope you'll update this thread with pics along the way.

if you never run an ammonia or nitrite test kit on a reef tank display your reefing will run much smoother, these test kits simply cause mass concern that is always unfounded. only a tank full of dead fish or a tank stilled with no motion, or a poisoned tank by external sources will overcome your natural ammonia control ability.

nothing in normal daily running including some degree of fish death left in the tank will overcome natural ammonia control, it's the most solid thing in reefing that a tank does.

I think mostly I'm leaning towards it being the cause of the test results, not the cause of the issues. Honestly I think it is usually hard to say what causes sudden weird issues like this. Sounds like this is a facility, cleaning service spray something near the tank they shouldn't have? Use a new scented plug in or something? Add anything new to the tank recently?

Do you have any carbon you can run on the tank? Try getting a polyfilter as well, changes colors and could show possible issues.

I tested the reef tank as well as the RO and both have no detectable chlorine. I also thought it could be possible that something foreign may have entered the tank, like cleaning solution. I'm just wondering how much would have to enter the tank to cause this issue. Wasn't enough to kill the fish but enough make them suffer and then to show that much "ammonia".. If the cleaning lady sprayed the tank with some cleaning solution, I would imagine only a very small amount entered the tank. It would have to be so intentional.

I will add carbon to the sump and look into polyfilter.

 

[bribosaurus]

you will have to choose between old and new cycling science, that's a rough choice agreed due to conflicting views between the two paradigms. reading that linked example thread w help in pattern though to ease concern about what these test kits do. 90% of people in that thread had the same concerns you did

but, you can also click on their name/select find all posts/ and see every update their tank ever had after I made a call on it during the time in that thread. you will see: not one single crash, no losses, this reinforces the updated cycling science mode in my opinion.

--I don’t know what the source would be. Nothing died. Nothing entered the tank. Nothing was touched or changed.

that's the critical detail for sure. that's why you can rest easy knowing this wasn't ammonia.

that tank above is back to clear; it can be used now.

if it acts up again post the pics here before any action taken and we can guide it accurately. this was a misread + action event for sure.

any study of the provided example link of false reads also has this recurring pattern: added a little prime

that affects reading accuracy. the right mode original was to take no action based on ammonia, never use Prime in reefing, throw it out (see chem forum threads why you won't use it/search em)

prime does nothing to help you in reefing, its a sham product. if you did have a real ammonia event caused by dead and rotting animals, it would not have helped.

I appreciate your input,

I'm just confused why you keep suggesting to put my fish and corals back into a system in which they were clearly suffering.

 

[sde1500]

I appreciate your input,

I'm just confused why you keep suggesting to put my fish and corals back into a system in which they were clearly suffering.

There is no harm in maintaining them in a quarantine tank for the time being. The reason we think the tests are false positive is because I believe everything would be very dead at that level of ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

You haven't read that example thread I can see now.

 

[brandon429]

I'll let u manage this one then.

 

[brandon429]

You have corals in that tank not suffering, we can see just now in the pic.

 

[Garf]

There is no harm in maintaining them in an a quarantine tank for the time being. The reason we think the tests are false positive is because I believe everything would be very dead at that level of ammonia.

Well, that depends on the pH mainly, and the organisms in the tank.

 

[sde1500]

For context, this tank lives at a non profit where we have very limited resources. I do the best I can with what I have and have even put my own money into this system.

If I’m wrong about the ammonia, what would’ve cause my fish and corals to visibly suffer overnight?

Was this picture taken after the issues?

 

[bribosaurus]

Don't suppose you've got a seachem ammonia alert badge hanging around? They indicate the free harmful ammonia quite reliably.

Edit - did you turn the pumps off for the photo? Have you checked the heater is working properly?

I'll let u manage this one then.

I came to this forum for help.

You have corals in that tank not suffering, we can see just now in the pic.

As I stated above, that photo is from weeks ago. Prior to my issues. It would be useless to post a photo of the tank in it’s current state because it is empty. Just a pile of rocks.

The clove polyps are dead. The leather is shriveled and sagging. The mushrooms and gsp have been closed up for 3 days now. The clowns and royal gramma were all huddled together in the bottom corner of the tank breathing rapidly. The gramma was pale and barely moving.

 

[bribosaurus]

Was this picture taken after the issues?

No, photo was taken prior to the issues

 

[brandon429]

one time two years ago I woke up to cloudy water and bleached corals

knowing ammonia could never, ever, ever be a factor in a post cycle reef tank without abnormal cause I tested things other than ammonia and found the temp was down to 68 due to heater broke.

using accurate cycling science lets you know what to immediately rule out but it takes a hunt sometimes to find the real cause. not ammonia here

do a big water change if youre concerned about the water but that one kenya coral above isn't harmed. it's standing right up. the briareum is polyps-open, theres coralline on the system, that is not a reef in distress.

your causes haven't been found because the entire thread was angled to reinforce an ammonia issue which is understandable: that's what every entrant in the example thread did too. It's how Dr Tim trained us to be/ he sells fixes for that concern, this isn't a judgement its a reflection on our collective poor training on cycling science in the hobby. we're trained to always flinch then buy something as a remedy.

it takes a lot of time and pain and dedication to undo that training, one work thread at a time.

in succession with ten years of work here, and all cycling threads I've been part of on the site: the pics here are of a reef not in distress.

any way we slice it: that's how it always goes down. I realize you had a prior challenge tbd, but it's not ammonia or the bad condition tank pic would follow today's alert test reading and they'd both be bad. we can't just have pics of perfectly healthy reefs and keep calling them cycle-broken. at some point of repetition, we need new rules on the matter.

 

[sde1500]

I came to this forum for help.

He was directing that at me. Since I didn't agree with him, he is upset.

No, photo was taken prior to the issues

That was what I thought, thank you.

but that one kenya coral above isn't harmed. it's standing right up.

As he said, multiple times now the pic pre-dates the issues. It makes little sense for you to be basing your diagnosis based on this.

 

[bribosaurus]

He was directing that at me. Since I didn't agree with him, he is upset.

That was what I thought, thank you.

As he said, multiple times now the pic pre-dates the issues. It makes little sense for you to be basing your diagnosis based on this.

Okay everyone, I think I may have found the issue.
Not confirmed, but I do believe someone thinking they were doing a good thing, tried dosing the tank with bacteria and accidentally used QuickCycl. The two bottles look very similar, I can see how it could get mixed up. Now it's on me to figure out who did this and why they felt the need to add bacteria to this tank without talking to someone about it first.......... this is the only answer I could come up with.

Or maybe someone here has it out for me and did this on purpose? lol

 

[sde1500]

Huh, well that certainly could do it, since that contains ammonia. If that was the case, the tank should be able to start processing it down with relative ease I'd hope.

 

[brandon429]

we're lucky to get updates on anything found, I wouldn't have thought to check that / nice find.

the tanks are so strong I think it'll just move right on/ they can absorb all kinds of shocks. heck in one thread in particular, the whole group is dosing liquid ammonia each day into their tanks on purpose it's nice to know there's no sustaining risk. you have a really nice system: no algae! that's a non invaded reef those are hard to attain/create over time and guide.

 

[brandon429]

also for cycling studies can you list your fish disease protocols used in this system (fallow / qt approach + do you fallow new entrants that come from pet stores like cuc and corals)

reason asking: there is a constant interplay in forum post assessment challenges between things disease can cause and things dying cycles can cause, without knowing the disease controls in place for a given system we don't have a complete picture of the tank

 

[Garf]

Okay everyone, I think I may have found the issue.
Not confirmed, but I do believe someone thinking they were doing a good thing, tried dosing the tank with bacteria and accidentally used QuickCycl. The two bottles look very similar, I can see how it could get mixed up. Now it's on me to figure out who did this and why they felt the need to add bacteria to this tank without talking to someone about it first.......... this is the only answer I could come up with.

Or maybe someone here has it out for me and did this on purpose? lol

If that's the case I'd probably take a bit of rock out and put it in with your fish until it drops in the display.

 

[sde1500]

@bribosaurus how's the tank looking now?