Keeping multiple flame angels together - experiment successful

4FordFamily · May 14, 2019

I have dropped hints at this previously, but here is a post about it.

I have always hypothesized that as I’ve experienced with tangs and other fish, simply “more” tends to even out aggression with even the most aggressive dwarf angels (aggressive to conspecifics, anyway).

Thanks to (or not thanks to) very nasty uronema, internal infections, velvet, and other issues with them recently, I was able to try this with MANY. The first, was all giant males (I mistakenly didn’t consider that sex may play a large role and that all large would be male— but they were). The first dozen were wiped out by uronema before we could figure out what was going on (red fish, tough to ID).

The second batch, velvet got through CP (or maybe it was 1.75PPM copper as we joined 4 QTs using both to one giant observation tank post-treatment) and the last battled with velvet when 1.75PPM just didn’t cut it. So all in all three batches of a dozen or so flame angels were tried with the same results.

Flame angels aren’t particularly hardy at first, but once established can be quite hardy.

My hypothesis was that 6-7+ in a large tank would coexist if quarantined together and released together. Studies show that a dominant fish will rise and males can even change sex to female.

Well, 4 of 12 made it through after a 2.0-2.25PPM copper treatment cured them. What a journey that was.

The result is a group of fish that don’t bicker and get along swimmingly (pun intended). Initially, they’d pick at each other but since they couldn’t single each other out, we lost very few (if any) to aggression — or at least few showed any noticeable damage, just disease. After the first week they all tolerated each other with an occasional scuffle. It gradually decreased and by about 3-4 weeks aggression was gone.

When added to the DT they chased each other briefly for a day or so and seemed to re-establish pecking order. I thought the experiment would fail, given that only four came through for such a large tank (10 foot long, 500 gallons). I almost pulled out and held them for another batch. I decided to take the gamble, and it worked out, however.

I guess you could say I am surprised by how well it worked (but not impressed by how bad the distribution system and disease has gotten). I’m not sure what to make of it, I believe it’s repeatable but don’t try this at home — I have tried 2-3 a few times with quick failure. I think a very large, busy tank, and several flame angels are necessary for this to work.

A shout out to @hotrocks— this all really went down at his house as he’s been quarantining all of my fish. LOL

Here’s a video of them together after feeding time:

Select HD playback.

User1 · May 14, 2019

Thank you for sharing. There is another member here or on another forum that I frequent who keeps several in his tank. Also how to tell the sex of them. Always wanted to try a trio of them. Very pretty fish.

Well done.

Edit: User is @OrionN (hope I got this correct!)

4FordFamily · May 14, 2019

Sorry for how poorly written that was, I’ll edit it in the morning. I posted it before dinner :D

ca1ore · May 14, 2019

Nice! I have a pair in my 450. Would like to add a couple more females but good specimens have been hard to come by lately. Mine do a spawning dance every evening ..... no actual eggs observed though. Maybe just practicing.

OrionN · May 14, 2019

I find that they likely do better if you have more rock than in the tank video above. They are not open water fish and darts in and out of the rock a lot.
In my 320 DT, or even in my 65 gal tank, adding small female/juvenile would be no problem. The male and other females does run at the new fish but never relentlessly chase them. I always keep my new angel separately keep them without competition (other than dither fish) and feed them until they eat aggressively and not thin before I add them to DT.
Unlike many veteran reefers, I do not QT and treat my fish (unless for specific observed disease). My isolation just to get them eating well and use to captivity condition in peace. I often keep dither fish (Ocellaris clowns) together with new fish. I either do so it in my lighted sump (in same system) or in my 40 QT system which used to QT corals, anemones and clams.
Once the fish is eating well and healthy and not thin, but gaining weight. I just add her to my DT.
With Flame Angels, I always add female or juvenile. Not recommended to add another male to a system already have a male in it. In a large system, like mine (320 gal) adding a male into it would likely be OK. The resident male will fish and chase the new male until the new male (or the one that lost) revert back to female. Even here in Corpus Christi, I do find female Flame Angels at Petco sometime so I often passed on male Flame angel that I see in the store. In fact, the third and fourth Flame angels in my tank right now was added one at a time. I ordered 5 small from Live Aquaria initially but 5 emaciated small Flame Angels came, and only 2 make it. I am still looking for the last one to make a five-some harem in my tank. The new female would get nipped at and will have torn fins and tails at time, but never severely. They will form a group with one male in short order. Because they are basically healthy and eating well, they weather these minor abuse without problem.
My harem of Flame angels spawn regularly, with eggs and sperm observed. It is really rewarding, IMO, to observe the male darts back and forth to bring all females to the right moment then spawned with each of the females.

drstardust · May 14, 2019

Cool! I appreciate how you push the envelope with mixing conspecifics and congenerics. I know it's much harder than the end result indicates, but it's great that it can be done.

OrionN · May 15, 2019

Shape to the Dorsal and Anal fins is how you can tell male from female flame angels. Male are pointed while female have rounded fins (fins have to be fully extended). Coloration and size also help but not as reliable. Male tend to have more blue and black (if genetic is the same which it is not) and Male usually larger on average.
Here is a new female in my tank with damage fin from abuse. As you can see she is far from thin when I introduced her to the DT.

Another of my female

Male

Male from Live Aquaria image

4FordFamily · May 15, 2019

OrionN said:
Shape to the Dorsal and Anal fins is how you can tell male from female flame angels. Male are pointed while female have rounded fins (fins have to be fully extended). Coloration and size also help but not as reliable. Male tend to have more blue and black (if genetic is the same which it is not) and Male usually larger on average.
Here is a new female in my tank with damage fin from abuse. As you can see she is far from thin when I introduced her to the DT.

Another of my female

Male

Male from Live Aquaria image

Agree. Mine had to be large due to tankmates so I started with all males, something I didn’t count on for some reason. I’m surprised if worked to be honest!

Thanks for your information as well, I was unaware that you’ve done the same :)

OrionN · May 15, 2019

I got several video of my flame spawning on YT somewhere, from years ago and recent also. I will try to locate it and post it here.

OrionN · May 15, 2019

Pbh-reef · May 15, 2019

Congrats @4FordFamily !

Also I appreciate you’re sharing the troubles. You e had QTing - makes me understand my own fish deaths in qt as part of a learning process

Crabs McJones · May 15, 2019

That lionfish has gotten huge since the last time I saw it :)

alton · May 15, 2019

Congrats 4Fordfamily! It seems the Xmas Island/Marshall Island Flame Angels have become hit or miss on survival. I finally gave up and found some from LA imported from Vanuatu. Now if I can get my two Blueface to live past 4 weeks?

User1 · May 15, 2019

@OrionN that clam is massive! Super awesome job on the tanks. Always a pleasure to watch.

Edit: Also what is the large dark color tang in there? Atlantic Blue?

4FordFamily · May 15, 2019

Crabs McJones said:
That lionfish has gotten huge since the last time I saw it :)

Yes she has!

OrionN · May 15, 2019

saf1 said:
@OrionN that clam is massive! Super awesome job on the tanks. Always a pleasure to watch.

Edit: Also what is the large dark color tang in there? Atlantic Blue?

That is an adult Chevron

User1 · May 16, 2019

OrionN said:
That is an adult Chevron

Thank you. I didn't know they got that dark in color. Pretty.

OrionN · May 16, 2019

Sorry to derail this thread. I won't post other than about Flame angel from now on in this thread.;Shamefullyembarrased;Shamefullyembarrased;Shamefullyembarrased

Kmsutows · May 16, 2019

Lookin good. It definitely something that shouldnt be of any issue for dwarfs so long as all are added at once. I tried with a trio in my 150gal.... one died and the other 2 decimated my coral. So what was once one of my favorite fish for the pop of color is now one I will never have again.