Kh important or myth

[Ash321]

What I find interesting, reading all this, is that people are upset that his alkalinity is at 4.78dkh. How many people keep their alkalinity at 11dkh-12dkh? The typical ocean surface value for alkalinity is 7dkh. 4.78dkh is closer to the average surface value than 11dkh. I find the reactions interesting. Would I keep mine this low...no. I just find it interesting that 11-12 is acceptable but 4.78 is not. He does have a nice looking tank so something is working.

Yes thank you exactley all i was saying. Seems to be abit of a trigger this discussion interesting though.

 

[SteadyC]

I will PM the OP the last few interesting threads I’ve read where seasoned reefers maintain low dkh. I don’t want to pull those folks into a debate they don’t care to have

Cheers!

Why not share with everyone? No one is against more data, data from seasoned reefers. The only answer thus far, is we shouldn’t question chemistry based on what one person said. While that one person admitted in the video that his levels are too low, and him adjusting upward with higher concentration buffers.

Yes, but there are more clever ways of doing so without calling someone an outright “idiot”. Personal attacks are against our TOS, and run contrary to the overall civility we like to foster here on R2R.

i read through my posts, not sure I see where I called him an idiot. Secondly, he’s not part of this thread at all, and even not part of R2R, not sure why you want to defend him. I wasn’t derogatory toward anyone on this thread, just said to take his information with a grain of salt. Seems I’m not the only that feels this way.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/m...bugs-me-about-your-posts.411014/#post-4896502

But, your point is noted, there are good ways to communicate. And I stated that I read his stuff also, to balance out my opinion.

 

[SteadyC]

What I find interesting, reading all this, is that people are upset that his alkalinity is at 4.78dkh. How many people keep their alkalinity at 11dkh-12dkh? The typical ocean surface value for alkalinity is 7dkh. 4.78dkh is closer to the average surface value than 11dkh. I find the reactions interesting. Would I keep mine this low...no. I just find it interesting that 11-12 is acceptable but 4.78 is not. He does have a nice looking tank so something is working.

Totally agree. Guy in a LFS, that I don’t do business with anymore, told me to run my alk between 10-12. Without knowing anything else about my tank, corals stocked, nutrient levels, nothing. Extremes in either direction aren’t good. That table came from Randy, who I totally trust. But I wouldn’t run Alk anywhere near 11. I’m currently hovering around 7.6.

For the record, I liked his (RB Jake) idea of corals on the glass walls when he did this a long time ago, I have a few like that. I like some of his ideas, but you shouldn’t believe everything, anyone says.

 

[Shep]

Why not share with everyone? No one is against more data, data from seasoned reefers. The only answer thus far, is we shouldn’t question chemistry based on what one person said. While that one person admitted in the video that his levels are too low, and him adjusting upward with higher concentration buffers.

i read through my posts, not sure I see where I called him an idiot. Secondly, he’s not part of this thread at all, and even not part of R2R, not sure why you want to defend him. I wasn’t derogatory toward anyone on this thread, just said to take his information with a grain of salt. Seems I’m not the only that feels this way.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/m...bugs-me-about-your-posts.411014/#post-4896502

But, your point is noted, there are good ways to communicate. And I stated that I read his stuff also, to balance out my opinion.

The post where you call Jake an idiot was removed for the reason Humble mentioned.

 

[Underwater_ECLiSS]

I wondered the same thing as I watched the video. Everybody’s opinion on proper alk is colored by their own experience — and it should be. Personally, I have had tanks that seem to defy conventional parameters and still thrive. This makes me think that not all of our tank chemistry is as well understood as we like to think it is. There are complex bio processes and chemical processes going on, and the params we chase are likely a simplification of what’s actually going on. We chase these numbers because they are mostly informed by the levels of NSW, and they also are levels that produce success in most tanks. Personally, I try to maintain the generally accepted ideal levels at the beginning — and once everything is looking great, I try to maintain STABILITY instead of ideal levels. Mainly I try to get a feel for my own tank and an intuition about what it needs. That can’t always come from a test. I agree with Jake not chasing “better” alk levels in his tank. He has a feel for his particular tank and it looks successful to me. And he tries to keep everything as stable as he can.

 

[Stigigemla]

I have had such values in my frag system without losses. Normally I take the kH (bicarbonate) solution from 2 7 gallon cans but if I miss when 1 can empties the kH values will naturally get lower. And the Ca will begin to rise because the coral growth is getting down. Having less than 0,2 mg/l nitrate and unreadable phosphorous (Hanna Checker) means that the coral growth is low anyway but with these values it is much lower. No visible change in colors.

 

[MnFish1]

I can say from experience that lfs do wait for tanks to cycle before filling them with sps. Some may speed that cycle up by utilizing rock from another established system but even then I’d venture to say a majority don’t immediately fill it up with new corals on day one, the losses would put most out of business in a hurry. You mention BRS and in their recent series on WWC it’s payed out right in the videos that they wait and let the tanks cycle, in reality it’s just part of the business, at least if you want to stay in business.

I didnt mean that a tank shouldn't cycle - I meant that there are some here who suggest that a tank needs to be up a year to support sps. I disagree. I do agree that stability and I think alk is most important but stability in everything is important. I have no doubt that coral can live in a low stable alk environment - but I agree with those saying its irresponsible to pretend that thats optimal (in a video). Lots of corals can tolerate different conditions.

 

[jda]

I think that people are misremembering other posts. What I have always seen is that most people think that acropora tanks get easier at a year and start to thrive better, not that it is impossible before that point... just harder. The few LFS around here that keep displays like a hobbyists would (rare and really the ONLY thing from a LFS worth paying attention to), take 2-3 years to get colonies and they take their time just like anybody else. The turn-and-burn display tanks for-sale are set up quicker, like a frag tank and have very few qualities that a hobbyist should try and use in a long-term display.

RB is in business to promote the products that advertise on their sites. He also runs a few regional shows and swaps - he lives about 10 miles from me. There are some cool articles on rare corals and fish from time to time. You can glean other things from the posts and videos, but husbandry, chemistry are not what they are there for... these videos feel like I imagine that it would feel for Dr. Holmes-Farley to do a 10 minute video about a few new observations about magnesium and strontium balance while trying to sneak in some advertisements for a new style of pump from an advertiser... it just would not feel right and you should focus on the purview of the author. In this case, the purview is to showcase things from his advertisers. He is good at it. If you have a product, then pay him and he will help you sell more it.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

I think that people are misremembering other posts. What I have always seen is that most people think that acropora tanks get easier at a year and start to thrive better, not that it is impossible before that point... just harder. The few LFS around here that keep displays like a hobbyists would (rare and really the ONLY thing from a LFS worth paying attention to), take 2-3 years to get colonies and they take their time just like anybody else. The turn-and-burn display tanks for-sale are set up quicker, like a frag tank and have very few qualities that a hobbyist should try and use in a long-term display.

RB is in business to promote the products that advertise on their sites. He also runs a few regional shows and swaps - he lives about 10 miles from me. There are some cool articles on rare corals and fish from time to time. You can glean other things from the posts and videos, but husbandry, chemistry are not what they are there for... these videos feel like I imagine that it would feel for Dr. Holmes-Farley to do a 10 minute video about a few new observations about magnesium and strontium balance while trying to sneak in some advertisements for a new style of pump from an advertiser... it just would not feel right and you should focus on the purview of the author. In this case, the purview is to showcase things from his advertisers. He is good at it. If you have a product, then pay him and he will help you sell more it.

I agree. It's just like paid advertising on late night/early morning TV.

 

[Will Wohlers]

Why not share with everyone? No one is against more data, data from seasoned reefers. The only answer thus far, is we shouldn’t question chemistry based on what one person said. While that one person admitted in the video that his levels are too low, and him adjusting upward with higher concentration buffers.

i read through my posts, not sure I see where I called him an idiot. Secondly, he’s not part of this thread at all, and even not part of R2R, not sure why you want to defend him. I wasn’t derogatory toward anyone on this thread, just said to take his information with a grain of salt. Seems I’m not the only that feels this way.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/m...bugs-me-about-your-posts.411014/#post-4896502

But, your point is noted, there are good ways to communicate. And I stated that I read his stuff also, to balance out my opinion.

Fyi Jake is very much a participant and member of reef2reef and I don't believe 100% of what anyone has to say. I have also put sps in almost every tank I've setup in the past 10 years, within the first 2 months of initial setup. It can be done and it can be done safely and responsibly. I can't recall ever losing a piece from it "not having sponges" not having " coraline etc. While a new reefer shouldn't attempt this a seasoned reefer can accomplish that easily.

 

[MnFish1]

Sawcjack00 says: "I think that people are misremembering other posts. What I have always seen is that most people think that acropora tanks get easier at a year and start to thrive better, not that it is impossible before that point... just harder. The few LFS around here that keep displays like a hobbyists would (rare and really the ONLY thing from a LFS worth paying attention to), take 2-3 years to get colonies and they take their time just like anybody else. The turn-and-burn display tanks for-sale are set up quicker, like a frag tank and have very few qualities that a hobbyist should try and use in a long-term display."

I agree completely with this. Growing fist sized colonies (or larger) from frags takes months-years. But many here suggest not putting SPS frags into a tank unless its a year old. Every LFS in our area (except 1) that stocks and sells corals has a display tank with larger corals - that are doing well and growing. It would probably be an interesting new thread: Can you put SPS into a new tank and have them start to grow and thrive (once the tank is cycled). With reasons why and why not.

 

[mckinney0171]

my dKH varies from 6.5 to 10.5 all week. i dose daily to bring it up but i don't monitor it religiously and only check it once a week. then i just dose what i need on test day and bring it back to 10.5 where i like my target to be. my sps have showed no negative response to this. but that's just my .02

 

[jda]

I don't remember anybody who knows what they are talking about in the SPS forum saying not to put acros in until a year. There are probably some that have said it that nobody should be listening to, but nobody should be paying attention to them - it is unfortunate that questioning background and experience is seen in our soft society as bashing when it is of paramount importance (the people who succeed in life will question these things and want answers). I have seen plenty of people caution not to expect too much early on and that their life will get easier in a year. These two things are not even close to the same.

As for me, I started a new tank in Feb. I had hundreds of pounds of cured and cycled live rock from the Marshall Islands to use - this is a huge benefit that not many people have. I put acropora in at about the 2 month mark. They did not die, but also did not really do anything until about the 6 month mark (August) and since then have doubled in size - this is about the time that coralline was growing new spots on the glass weekly and the building block levels settled down and stopped jumping around. I know what I am doing and did not have any success (but also no failure) until the 6 month mark starting with well established live rock. I used my standard recipe which is lots of live rock, low but slightly detectable building blocks, lots of Metal Halide and rock solid elements with a CaRx. New acro tanks are hard, but not impossible... and I don't remember anybody who knows what they are talking about ever saying any different in enough volume to matter.

Getting back to the original question... you can choose whether to trust successful hobbyists, biologists and chemists about keeping alk stable and not worrying about pH, or you can go with a salesman's comment in one video. This should be an easy choice. For me, this is easy... watch Copps grow colonies the size of beach balls in a few years, schnitzel has an active thread, JB, etc... all with stable parameters. Sure, people can post that they see no ill effect from doing this, that or the other, but do they have enough breath and depth of knowledge to know any different? I don't know the answer and we will never know since the world is full of sensitive people now who will shut you down for being negative when these types of questions should be embraced.

 

[MnFish1]

my dKH varies from 6.5 to 10.5 all week. i dose daily to bring it up but i don't monitor it religiously and only check it once a week. then i just dose what i need on test day and bring it back to 10.5 where i like my target to be. my sps have showed no negative response to this. but that's just my .02

Curious what size tank do you have? why not calculate the amount you add on 'test day' and divide by 7 so that its more stable? It might be that they would do 'better' with a more stable alkalinity - curious what kind of SPS do you have? I have heard almost everyone suggest that the maximum dKH to raise in a day is 1. If you're only measuring once/week yours must be raising by 4 dKH in one day - which doesn't make sense?

 

[mckinney0171]

Curious what size tank do you have? why not calculate the amount you add on 'test day' and divide by 7 so that its more stable? It might be that they would do 'better' with a more stable alkalinity - curious what kind of SPS do you have? I have heard almost everyone suggest that the maximum dKH to raise in a day is 1. If you're only measuring once/week yours must be raising by 4 dKH in one day - which doesn't make sense?

it's an IM Nuvo 10 so keeping stability somewhat of a challenge. 80% of the corals are sps (battlecorals battlebox frags mostly - mixed bag) i just add 25-30mL a day of red sea alk part B. I rarely dose Calcium as my system doesn't use as much of it (usually only add it weekly). It's easy enough just to add the Alk when i do my nopox and bacteria dosing daily. i could get fancy and do dosing pumps but haven't felt the need to. i find my alkalinity consumption to be somewhat inconsistent as well as the pH goes up and down from CO2 in our house. I use a CO2 scrubber made from a kombucha bottle filled with media plumbed to my skimmer.

 

[guidedbyechoes]

Stability.

 

[Amoo]

Can you put SPS into a new tank and have them start to grow and thrive (once the tank is cycled). With reasons why and why not.

I can honestly probably give a statistically significant answer to this based simply on my experience answering Nem threads for the past few years.

1. If it is an experienced reefer and and experienced nem keeper, there are almost never problems.

2. If it is an experienced reefer but new nem keeper it works more times then not.

3. If it is a new reefer and a new nem keeper if is very rocky or doesn't end up working more times then not.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

it's an IM Nuvo 10 so keeping stability somewhat of a challenge. 80% of the corals are sps (battlecorals battlebox frags mostly - mixed bag) i just add 25-30mL a day of red sea alk part B. I rarely dose Calcium as my system doesn't use as much of it (usually only add it weekly). It's easy enough just to add the Alk when i do my nopox and bacteria dosing daily. i could get fancy and do dosing pumps but haven't felt the need to. i find my alkalinity consumption to be somewhat inconsistent as well as the pH goes up and down from CO2 in our house. I use a CO2 scrubber made from a kombucha bottle filled with media plumbed to my skimmer.

I wonder if slowly starting to dose the same amount of each a and b will get you more stable? Not a small tank guy but I know when all is only being used something is off and needs to be leveled out til you can dose both in the same proportions like two part is supposed to be dosed. Or is this something that's too hard to do in a small tank?

 

[Lousybreed]

I will admit I was shocked to hear that he routinely runs his alk around 6. I thought below 6.4ish was certain death of SPS....I was shocked when watching his video too. Can’t believe that someone wouldn’t even routinely test for alk. But I guess the less you test, the less you monkey around with things, the most stable the parameter is....