LACK OF BASICS KEEPING NEWBIES AWAY FROM REEFING

[Brad Miller]

Great discussion everyone !

As with any hobby, cost does play a big role and is, or should be, based on an individuals personal or financial situation. (Please don’t use your credit card or use your grocery money) ;Facepalm

I really agree with a lot of you guys saying that books are missed, not just in this hobby but in general for anything. (a generational thing I’m sure)
The only magazine I found to subscribe to is Coral Magazine (yes...I get the mag delivered via snail mail to my mailbox...no, not my inbox)
When I wanted some books to research before starting up my tank, I was baffled to find that the ones I could find were printed a while ago, as if they aren’t selling, therefore not being written anymore, so if you have some, keep them in your safe.

I know I overdid it when I set my first saltwater tank up last May, but boy have I learned a lot through trial and error (and all you wonderful people here on R2R)

I had so many butterflies in my stomach when I got my first corals that I told my wife, I was so scared to dip them, not ever having done it before. Since then I slowly became more comfortable and have been using Detol for a while now, instead of buying the expensive brand name designer stuff .... heck, I still have an unopened bottle of that designer brand ;Yuck.... and a very small amount of Detol will last me several years to boot !

My DT is coming along beautifully and my livestock is healthier and happier since I know more about them too

 

[jda]

Maybe I am way off base, but a lot of noobies that I see are more into the build than they are having a tank. They want the perfect red PVC, all of the toys and everything tech... this is what they are after.

Our local club is doing a $1000 total cost build that will run for 1 year. Here is my 60g cube entry made of mostly used stuff from the back of the LFS(s), craigs list and some eBay. The whole idea is that noobies who want to be in the hobby can follow these threads and get an idea of how a more experienced person can do this for a lot less... function over form, if you will. Our club in Missouri did this more than a decade ago and it was really well loved by most of the noobies who got some great ideas free from the fanboys, advertisers and stuff:
https://www.marinecolorado.org/threads/jda-build-off-competition-entry-60g-mbp-s-cube.27451/

I would be cool to do this on this board too, if somebody wants to take this to the bosses... Here are the rules that I mostly came up with and the club polished up with dates and stuff:
https://www.marinecolorado.org/threads/masc-member-tank-build-off-competition.27181/

 

[dantimdad]

I did my 93 cube for under a grand. It's entirely possible.

 

[jda]

I totally agree... just think that noobies get roped into the tech, BRS videos, facebook groups and the like and think that new things and gadgets will save their tanks. I wonder how many of them know that you can do it much simpler and cheaper. You see the posts all the time that say "all this expensive equipment and my tank sucks" or something like that.

Our build contest starts in April and runs for a year.

 

[Bpb]

I think shopping used is the key. I’m over a grand because I splurged on some very reliable gear that I didn’t want to get used. But you guys nailed it. New hobbyists are way more interested in the build rather than the ownership.

 

[MrObscura]

There is definitely a penchant for over complicating things, while spending a whole lot of money.

 

[C-Reefer]

I think a lot of people don't realize that most people when they get into the hobby, and prehaps never, don't want the SPS or even LPS. Most people are perfectly happy with the simple cheap softies that you can succesfully grow with the simplest and cheapest of setups. Not everyone wants really high end stuff. If they do eventually get into it more, its a lot easier to slowly upgrade to keeping everything, as opposed to having to sell a bunch of high end equipment and take a big loss because, oh, three months later you find out keeping a reef tank is not for you. You can run a happy growing softies tank for really really cheap.

 

[PatrickMorris]

The good old days, you could grow anything for a nickel, brown zoos, brown mushrooms, brown sps...ahhh

 

[BeejReef]

As a brand new reefer, I really appreciate this post. Used tank, 8yo lights, no-name skimmer, and a hunk of chaeto. I do have dc powerheads.

I can't argue with the advise I get from the premier online retailer's youtube series. They're quite transparent with the "most reefers won't need this.... but if you want the best."
Still, it leaves you really wanting the best.. lol. I think they deserve a lot of credit though for truly running experiments and sharing results. Even so, there always seems to be a $600 solution to a mundane issue.

I was so nervous adjusting my alk with baking soda last week. I had to find three different internet sources assuring me it was ok. How can something that costs 88 cents not insta-kill my tank

To totally agree with the OP though, forums like this are invaluabe, if for no other reason than to hear the other side of the story. If I had any idea how much the first year cost, I'd never have started down this road... lol. It blows my mind to think how much it could have cost with all new gear. I don't really mind spending the money over the course of a few years, but zero chance I'm parting with 4g's up front. If there's one thing I could offer from my extremely limited experience, it would be that us new folk should look on our first tank like our first car. Don't overdo it while you're just learning how.

 

[BeejReef]

Part of the issue today is that people in general want to get info handed to them on a silver platter, dont want to spend time learning, reading, and finding out as much as possible about topic in hand. How many times did we see "which is the best light I should buy", "which skimmer is best" and so on type of a post without any background on what they are trying to achieve. Before, people would do some research and decide what are important things for them, what are the differences between 5 lights fixtures or 5 skimmers. Then they would come and ask out of these 5 which ones would be best for me, as I want to achieve this or that. Now, they just expect people to hand them the best answer based on nothing, and this is what they end up getting: most expensive equipment, as people associate expensive with best.

Then they will pass that same recommendation to other new members as gospel, and it just keeps going from there. To make things worse, they will get really mad when someone calls them out and tells them they are wrong (usually these are people that actually know what they are doing) or they will get mad when you say that their $1000 light fixture with all bells and whistles will grow corals just the same as units that cost 1/2 the price. People dont like hearing that they are wrong, and that they wasted money, so they get defensive and try to prove that they are right, even when they are not. Thee same folks will consider themselves experts because they have apex, and $2000 lights, and $1000 sump, and all the fancy matching plumbing, and because they are able to keep what they consider a healthy tank for 1-2 years.

And this may be unpopular opinion, but I see this more on R2R than on RC for example. I think reason being is that on the other site people will speak their mind, they dont care if they hurt someone's feelings, and will call out people when they are completely wrong, and sharing incorrect info. On R2R, there is this aura of trying to make everyone feel welcome, which doesnt work when you have such large number of people that think they are experts.

I can't fault new enthusiast's desire for a simple how-to. They just want a freaking fish tank. How hard can it be.. lol. It's not like they get a strong consensus answer from the "reefing community" when they say they want clowns, a nem, and some staghorn. So often it devolves into a heated debate over 2 part or a reactor. With different camps screaming at each other online, it's much easier to listen to the 18 yo at the pet store that says buy this and this.

I feel like the complexity and the expense comes from wanting a fish tank that I don't really have to work on or maintain. If you don't enjoy doing it, or can't be bothered, you suddenly need to be able to write advanced code and integrate your home's climate control with your tank.

 

[BeejReef]

Maybe I am way off base, but a lot of noobies that I see are more into the build than they are having a tank. They want the perfect red PVC, all of the toys and everything tech... this is what they are after.

Our local club is doing a $1000 total cost build that will run for 1 year. Here is my 60g cube entry made of mostly used stuff from the back of the LFS(s), craigs list and some eBay. The whole idea is that noobies who want to be in the hobby can follow these threads and get an idea of how a more experienced person can do this for a lot less... function over form, if you will. Our club in Missouri did this more than a decade ago and it was really well loved by most of the noobies who got some great ideas free from the fanboys, advertisers and stuff:
https://www.marinecolorado.org/threads/jda-build-off-competition-entry-60g-mbp-s-cube.27451/

I would be cool to do this on this board too, if somebody wants to take this to the bosses... Here are the rules that I mostly came up with and the club polished up with dates and stuff:
https://www.marinecolorado.org/threads/masc-member-tank-build-off-competition.27181/

I'm not in that camp, but if a tech junky finds the hobby enjoyable because of the tech and the gear, so long as they properly care for their livestock, I'd say to each his own. I share your sentiment though. It is odd to watch a 12 minute video of someone showcasing all of their gear and there's barely a fish or a coral in the tank.

 

[hotdrop]

I can't fault new enthusiast's desire for a simple how-to.

I feel like the complexity and the expense comes from wanting a fish tank that I don't really have to work on or maintain. If you don't enjoy doing it, or can't be bothered, you suddenly need to be able to write advanced code and integrate your home's climate control with your tank.

A lot of this is also driven by a large shortage of mid tier gear. There are a ton on options at the low end and a ton of high end Items but not a lot of mid grade reliable but not overly complicated items.

If you want hardware that has quality control you are forced to get something with all these extra features you don’t actually want. Or something designed 2 decades ago

 

[jda]

That "medium equipment" tier is used, high end equipment. You are correct about not really being much in the new market for a lot of things, but there is for some.

There is actually a lot of moderately priced, very high quality stuff, but most of it does not have any "features." Most of these "features" are of no consequence, but lots of people want even though they offer nothing of real value. When you factor in longevity, most of the higher end stuff (except for lights) gets pretty cheap if you are not using a "pennywise, pound foolish" paradigm.

 

[hotdrop]

I tried to go after that market and I’ve been disappointed so far. I didn’t save that much money and I got a hard lesson on all sorts of different failure modes. All the replacement parts cost half the price of new units so I actually ended up paying more. I wouldn’t recommend that for a new reef keeper, there are just too many things that go wrong with even new reef equipment, the used stuff really requires good knowledge on what to look for that new reefers don’t have.

 

[jda]

Did you do this with Tunze, LifeReef, MagDrive, MH and T5 equipment and some of the super reliable stuff, or with tech like DC pumps, controllers, LED lights, etc.? Anything that has a "controller" should probably have a warranty, for sure.

 

[hotdrop]

Did you do this with Tunze, LifeReef, MagDrive, MH and T5 equipment and some of the super reliable stuff, or with tech like DC pumps, controllers, LED lights, etc.? Anything that has a "controller" should probably have a warranty, for sure.

Nah sadly it was ecotech stuff, and Red Sea. The kind of equipment you are talking about requires a ton of space and a pretty big volume setup. I briefly looked for a decent MH light setup for my waterbox 45 setup but there isn’t much available and what is available is ugly and large

 

[jda]

You can get Tunze stuff used for smaller tanks. It is good if you can... I have some flow pumps that are more than a decade old and still running well. Tunze is on a different level than EcoTech.

 

[hotdrop]

I think a lot of modern parts are designed to 2x warranty period life. LEDs have power supply problems, pumps have bushing/bearing failures. The components are a lot smaller as a result, and so reefers can run much smaller systems

 

[Brad Miller]

I came across this series of videos by Mark Callahan (Mr. Saltwater) for people new to the saltwater hobby.

Maybe if newbies could learn the basics instead of high end confusion, their success rate would be greater and we’d have more actually stay in the hobby.

Here’s a link to saltwateraquarium.com where Mark has taken over their YouTube channel and now does a great job for them.

If you’re thinking about getting into the hobby, or you already are and need some guidance, Mark explains things in simple terms.

Start at episode #1 and move through them...
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/video/budget-saltwater-aquarium-series/

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Maybe if newbies could learn the basics instead of high end confusion, their success rate would be greater and we’d have more actually stay in the hobby

You guys are a bunch of grumpy old reefers. Stay off my lawn. Just kidding.

Half the enjoyment is doing basic things old schools. The other half is looking at what you did.

We should embrace technology as well though. Sorta like before automatic transmission. Had to learn to shift. Now anyone jumps in a can push the gas without even knowing what a manual transmission is. Imagine buying an entire set up. Just fill up fluids and turn on, insert animal. Imagine instant powdered tang. Just add water like sea monkeys on back of detective magazines

Myself, I would not know what to do with an Apex if I got entire set up for free.