Lanthanum Chloride

[GARRIGA]

I dose into my overflow in the sump. From there it goes through 2 - 200micron filter socks, into my skimmer, through a bubble sponge and then into the return.

Interesting that which isn't picked up by the skimmer post 200 micron sock isn't affecting the Tangs. Perhaps the small dosages the solution to that unless you're passing 100% post sock through skimmer. Am I correct in former or latter?

 

[JGT]

Can’t say that 100% is going through the skimmer as when it leaves the socks it goes into a middle chamber that houses the skimmer so while a good bit is probably sucked up by the skimmer, I’m sure there is some that’s bypassing it as well. From there, it heads to the return but there is a pretty dense sponge that all the water needs to pass through to get to the return chamber. That might be catching some as well. The low doses also probably minimize any negative effects.
I have also read in this thread of people dosing directly into their DT with no negative impacts as well so who knows.:)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

While it is unclear how long it takes all of the lanthanum to precipitate as something, and certainly some passes out of a sock or skimmer unreacted, I don't think there's any big conundrum to solve. One is never trying to treat all of the tank water on a given day (except perhaps in a mixing bin) since one doesn't actualy want a big drop in a single day. Devices like denitrators and calcium carbonate/CO2 reactors provide plenty of benefits to elements without needing to pass all the water through them at a fast rate. :)

 

[GARRIGA]

Trying to grasp then why some Tangs get affected and most logical being dosage size from what I've read.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Trying to grasp then why some Tangs get affected and most logical being dosage size from what I've read.

Yes, I'd like to know as well, and it is hard to tease out what is different in those few cases for cases where tangs were present and impacted vs the many where they are present and not impacted.

The uncertainty revolves around uncertainty in the mechanism:

1. Free lanthanum ions impacting fish
or
2. Lanthanum phosphate/carbonate particulates impacting fish
or
3. Too much of 1 or 2 all at once
or
4. An impurity in the lanthanum

The ways to deal with these issues are different.

 

[Pistondog]

Trying to grasp then why some Tangs get affected and most logical being dosage size from what I've read.

Perhaps it is like cigerette smoking. 3 packs a day is worse than one or 2 on the weekend.
So i agree with your idea that it is all about dosage. If tangs are exposed to a lot of lanthanum phosphate, vs small amounts, they might be more compromised.
THis post corroborates your idea, see last paragraph
Post in thread 'Lanthanum Chloride' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lanthanum-chloride.1088873/post-13159132

 

[ShawnSaucier]

This may have been discussed, would this be an effective tool in the cycling process of “ mined” white rock. Theoretically helping to remove the PO4 that can leach from these rocks and improve the maturing time by reducing a food source for the algae’s that have become common with this type of rock? Let’s say you are doing a three month cycle before lights and fish are added, during that time you are using LC to possible help remove the PO4 as the rock becomes more saturated and begins to release what is built up inside. Or is it possible that the flocs can bind within the pores of the rock, further binding the PO4 and extending the leaching process?

 

[14 foot reef]

Just a personal experience, I've had extremely more stabile results using Phosphate RX from Blue Life, yes more expensive, but found it to be so much more precise and predictable than regular lanthanum or DIY Lanthanum.

Just my experience, moved to it over one year ago, will not switch back even if cost is higher as I'm treating 1000 gallons, still safer control for me, using Hanna checker for results.
Again, just my personal experience.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

THis post corroborates your idea, see last paragraph
Post in thread 'Lanthanum Chloride' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lanthanum-chloride.1088873/post-13159132

The mechanism proposed in the last paragraph of that link is, IMO, a hypothesis that is neither convincing (to me, since I do not see evidence that the pH near the gill surface is going to be low enough to have that effect) nor supported by any actual experiments that I know of (if there are, I'd be interested in them).

 

[Pistondog]

@Beuchat
Thanks for the idea, any support for this statement?

"...the flocs can cause turbidity in the water, and fish, during respiration, can absorb them through their gills, where there is a very low pH due to CO2 excretion. This can cause the flocs to dissolve, leading to lanthanum intoxication."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There’s a very extensive review of lanthanum tox here, but not much info on marine fish tox mechanisms;
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014765131530110X

 

[GARRIGA]

Considering the level of unknown then perhaps prudent to take precautions and go overboard in that execution. Current plan is small multiple doses into a 5 micron sock or cartridge and monitor ICP-MS results for residual although not yet certain that residual is of concern but a bridge worrying once crossing. Plan is not because I grasp what I'm doing but because holistically it seems to be the safest route taken. Sometimes now knowing is all we have.

 

[Reefer1978]

I am experimenting with LC dosing as nothing else has worked for me to lower P to desirable levels. If anything, as soon as I stopped LC dosing it shot back up. LC (Tropic Marin version, hope a very clean version addressing Randy's "An impurity in the lanthanum" above), is diluted 3:1, and is dosed into the skimmer body hourly with a doser, 24ml per day. In addition I am using a Poly Filter to remove any undesirables from the water.

So far, Phosphate is down from 3.0 > .35 (measured yesterday), .05 drop in the last 24 hours. I am planning to slow it down more at .2, and then again at 1.5. No impact to tang population or any other fish (Hippo, Gem, White Tail Bristle and Chocolate).

 

[schooncw]

I am experimenting with LC dosing as nothing else has worked for me to lower P to desirable levels. If anything, as soon as I stopped LC dosing it shot back up. LC (Tropic Marin version, hope a very clean version addressing Randy's "An impurity in the lanthanum" above), is diluted 3:1, and is dosed into the skimmer body hourly with a doser, 24ml per day. In addition I am using a Poly Filter to remove any undesirables from the water.

So far, Phosphate is down from 3.0 > .35 (measured yesterday), .05 drop in the last 24 hours. I am planning to slow it down more at .2, and then again at 1.5. No impact to tang population or any other fish (Hippo, Gem, White Tail Bristle and Chocolate).

And the continuous fluctuation will wreak havoc on your system. Ask me how I know:)

 

[Reefer1978]

And the continuous fluctuation will wreak havoc on your system. Ask me how I know:)

Do say more as I am genuinely curious, but I am not fluctuating at the moment, I am working to get the dose dialed in perfectly.

 

[Reefer1978]

My experiment continues.
3/9 - 3.2ppm
3/10 - 3.0ppm

Cleaned the skimmer, adjusted for max power (more water flow + less air) to allow for more LC exposure in skimmer body.

No observed impact to fish.

 

[Bruttall]

I used Tri-Lanthanum Chloride diluted 50ml into 1450ml RODI, about 25ml per day Via Neptune Apex Dosing directly into Skimmer Neck for About 16 months and it finally eradicated the Phos from my system. Pretty much proved to myself that dry Marco Rock absolutely leaches tons of Phos into the system. My entire reef was made from that dry rock.
I am happy to say now I do not have to dose for phos any more and if I notice it is a bit low, I just add a bit more food.
Life's good this week!

 

[Reefer1978]

Triton ICP just came back. After 2 months of dosing LC, Lanthanum -- 0.00 µg/l.

 

[T-Hart]

I have to add po4 to even be able to measure it.

I did too for about a year. I added 3 new tiny Wrasses to a heavily stocked tank 220gallons of water after rock displacement, and started dumping in a mixture of thawed frozen foods. Mysis, blood worms, etc a couple times a day cause im not worried about nitrates/phodphates its akways been stable... in about 2 weeks I tested and boom.... .27. Crazy, so now I'm using a bit of GFO to knock it down and feeding less. Usually works fine no issues no risk.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

... in about 2 weeks I tested and boom.... .27. Crazy, so now I'm using a bit of GFO to knock it down and feeding less. Usually works fine no issues no risk.

There's nothing wrong with a bit lower target level, but 0.27 ppm is within my recommended target range for phosphate in reef tanks.

This has more on how I set that:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/