Lasses Dream Build

[Lasse]

Hi, I have been struggling with the launch of my reef for a long time, I could not understand why, I did not have TRITON measurements, but I always saw an imbalance of nitrate phosphate in my system (NO3 0) 4 liters of siporax. The year was lost - everything was fine, it could be a coincidence .....

Siporax is an excellent medium for accomplishing denitrification. This is due to the fact that the tubular form causes organic matter to settle. A low flow through - oxygen-free. If you also use organic carbon source, you further improve the possibility of denitrification. That’s the reason why I put Siporax in the bottom of my DSB. I have a plenum below the DSB and pump water in to this plenum and my water aftermath pass through the DSB from the bottom to the top. My thought was that not to use organic carbon – instead I want the organic matter of my water to settle in the lower part of my DSB and after a while – through decomposition – produce its own fast organic carbon source for my DSB. I also know – if I did this way – I had to be prepared to put in nitrate into the system. And I have done that for the whole period.

What I did not realize, however, was the fact that Siporax was not inert during anaerobic circumstances. It will – clearly - release one of its main ingredients – silicon.

Still – the high level of more than 7000 ppb can be a “**** happens value” – but the earlier value was around 1000 ppb in two measurements – still very high. I will send in a new test in a month or two. I have decided not to do anything else but just use an aluminum-based phosphate trap as long as I can without risking zero in phosphate

Sincerely Lasse

 

[293482398]

Siporax is an excellent medium for accomplishing denitrification. This is due to the fact that the tubular form causes organic matter to settle. A low flow through - oxygen-free. If you also use organic carbon source, you further improve the possibility of denitrification. That’s the reason why I put Siporax in the bottom of my DSB. I have a plenum below the DSB and pump water in to this plenum and my water aftermath pass through the DSB from the bottom to the top. My thought was that not to use organic carbon – instead I want the organic matter of my water to settle in the lower part of my DSB and after a while – through decomposition – produce its own fast organic carbon source for my DSB. I also know – if I did this way – I had to be prepared to put in nitrate into the system. And I have done that for the whole period.

What I did not realize, however, was the fact that Siporax was not inert during anaerobic circumstances. It will – clearly - release one of its main ingredients – silicon.

Still – the high level of more than 7000 ppb can be a “**** happens value” – but the earlier value was around 1000 ppb in two measurements – still very high. I will send in a new test in a month or two. I have decided not to do anything else but just use an aluminum-based phosphate trap as long as I can without risking zero in phosphate

Sincerely Lasse

Great write up and the Si issue is new to me. Any chance it's from another source (bad RODI membrane) or something else??

 

[Lasse]

I do not use RODI - I use tap water sic! Rather free of Si here in Gothenburg. No - the Si comes from a source inside my Aquarium and friends of mine has have the same issue with sand filters (Si rich sand) that got anaerobic without their notice . They realize high value of Si and discover the problem. They still run the same sand filter, the same sand but nowadays its always aerobic - no problems with high Si levels. They also test with Siporax. I´m 97 % sure - it’s the siporax + anaerobic conditions :)


Sincerely Lasse

 

[293482398]

I do not use RODI - I use tap water sic! Rather free of Si here in Gothenburg. No - the Si comes from a source inside my Aquarium and friends of mine has have the same issue with sand filters (Si rich sand) that got anaerobic without their notice . They realize high value of Si and discover the problem. They still run the same sand filter, the same sand but nowadays its always aerobic - no problems with high Si levels. They also test with Siporax. I´m 97 % sure - it’s the siporax + anaerobic conditions :)
Sincerely Lasse

Gotcha, fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

 

[gettaReef]

Regarding your friends sand filter, isn't the point of a remote sand filter to lower nutrients (via anaerobic conditions), or is there another way the sand filter removes nitrate/phosphate with it being fully aerobic? Or maybe I am wrong and the use of sand filter is for entirely different reason than to lower nutrients?

Also, (I'm sure you have explained before) but what is the rationale behind using tap water? And what salt brand do/did you use for makeup water (or was that custom made)?

Thanks, your system is looking phenomenal

 

[Sallstrom]

Regarding your friends sand filter, isn't the point of a remote sand filter to lower nutrients (via anaerobic conditions), or is there another way the sand filter removes nitrate/phosphate with it being fully aerobic? Or maybe I am wrong and the use of sand filter is for entirely different reason than to lower nutrients?

Also, (I'm sure you have explained before) but what is the rationale behind using tap water? And what salt brand do/did you use for makeup water (or was that custom made)?

Thanks, your system is looking phenomenal

Hi. I'm the friend he meant :) We use sand pressure filters, like poolfilters. They are mainly particle filters, and should be aerobic.

/ David

 

[Lasse]

@Sallstrom
You also use it in order to collect lanthanum chloride flocks as I remember it :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

@Sallstrom
You also use it in order to collect lanthanum chloride flocks as I remember it :)

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, isn't LaPO4 a particle? ;)

/ David

 

[Lasse]

@gettaReef
The rationale behind it - it is easy to use that instead of RO (I´m a lazy old man)- and I hate to put excellent prepared drinking water into the drain! The wastewater – itself - from the RO done from drinking water of Swedish standard is better that many excellent tap waters around the world. However – if there is high levels of calcium and high level of bicarbonate/carbonate alkalinity in the Swedish tap water – it’s difficult to use as mixing water (but excellent to use as top of water). My tapewater has very low amount of this compounds

In Sweden - municipal water has a high standard when it leaves the waterworks but in the most buildings – there is pipes of Cupper. Normal municipal water has a pH around 8.1 so normally - there is a low dissolving factors of Cu ions into the water but you must be aware of this problem. I normally only use cold water and sometimes use bentonite clay in order to trap heavy metals in the bottom (bentonite clay – major part of Easy Life and similar products) of my top off tank. The other problem with tap water is active Chlorine and chloramine. They are normally very low in our water (chloramine is used by the drinking water plant in Gothenburg) - but even here – there is tricks to remove it. I normally use ascorbic acid (C-vitamin) – a tea spoon to app 200 – 300 liter of water. And most people does not know that a part of the chloramine pass through the RO membranes - so in heavy treated water (with chloramine) it will spill over into the aquaria in spite of use of RO.

I have run with tap water for nearly 10 years now – and the water from my treatment plant is good for it. My Cu concentration is slightly raised (app 7 µg/l ) In this aquaria I haven’t use any flocking agents – only cold water. I put in around 3 liters of top of water every day – from the tap.

I´m not saying – this is the best – but I do not feel that I need to use RO with my tap water. It’s a chance taking if the water plant get troubles with their equipment or the pipes will be broken on their way out to us. But on the other hand – it could come a giant comet and crash over my house J


Thank you for your comments of my Aquaria

I use different vendor’s salt mixes – but always the standard salt – without all additives that is modern now. In Sweden – its normally means Red Sea, Tropic Marine, DD (very close to Red Sea). Aqua Medic and Aqua Forrest – but always their standard (“fish salts”) the reason for this is that I want to know what I put into my aquaria – my gut (and experiences) say me that short cuts – often becomes a long, long journey.

I also do a Triton test now and then. Try to not be fooled by individual measurements - try to analyzes trends instead

Sincerely Lasse

 

[gettaReef]

Thanks for the detailed information! You are very knowledgeable. Reef on!

 

[Lasse]

My mom passed away this spring - 95 years old (a hint for how long period you have to stand with me) My wife are now reviewing the treasure of my moms old photographs (treasure and treasure – she was the bus travel generation (trough Europe) :)) But this one showed up - it is surly the beginning of all madness - probably from 1961. :)

​

Sincerely Lasse

My avatar shows a little older guy without white shirt and a tie :)

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

Nice, my Uncle had probably the exact same tank when I was a kid!

 

[Lasse]

Thank you @Floyd R Turbo

The Aquarium is gone since a long time ago - but we still have the table - However I have not realize before (I found the picture) that it is my first aquarium stand - 56 years ago ! :) - Maybe recycle it an redo it to a stand for a nano?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

10 Days later - a package in the mail

​

I will wait for a while before I install it I´m going away for a week at the end of the month and this is a new idea I will test – I have no idea whether it works or not.

The basic idea is to bubble some CO2 below my DSB.

Today my pH swing from 8.1 in the morning to 8.3 in the end of the day. The reason for the upcoming pH during the day (read – when light is on) is the consumption of CO2 from algae and zooxanthella. There is a greater need for CO2 than the production and gas equilibration can bring to the system. I am aware of the fact that many corals (or clades of zooxanthella) can transfer bicarbonate/carbonate to CO2 but what I´m understand – it will cost energy. CO2 – on the other hand - if it can be taken out of the water like gas - costs no extra energy. It means that the energy produced by the zooxanthella can be used for growth instead. My idea is to try to have the pH constant around 8.1 – 8.15. When there is more production than consumption (when the photosynthesis is absent or low) – I use CO2 scrubbed air to the skimmer in order to degas the CO2 and when the consumption is higher than the production – I put in CO2 through my new equipment. When do I know that I have to put in CO2? – The answer is my pH. I have a profilux computer and one of the good things with that computer is that you can create virtual probes from one existing probe. It means that you can have different set points with the same existing probe. I will set the set point for my real probe to putting in CO2 free air if the pH is lower than 8.1 and the virtual probe (based on the real) will have a set point (in the beginning at least) at 8.15. If the pH rise over this – the system inject CO2 gas. I will have that injection below the DSB. The reason for this is to use the CO2 both in order to put down the pH and to solve some of the limestone in the DSB to calcium and carbonates – The DSB will work as a not so effective limestone reactor (kalk reactor) but a type of.

I use Balling for the moment but I have to adjust this if I get my DSB to give out both Ca and CO3 – I need to be home with other Words.

Will it work in the way I want – I do not know but I know for sure that I want to know :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[najer]

Interesting, can't wait to see how this goes, enjoy your break. :)

 

[Lasse]

@najer Thank you. I´m going to Hungary and visit an old friend of mine - so it will be good.

Sincerly Lasse

 

[Lasse]

More than 30 000 views !!!!

Thank you all for your interest in my build!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

There has been some discussions about denitrification in another thread here at R2R. Because the discussion was of topic in that thread - I wrote down some things according to my point of view in this subject and how I have adapt my new aquaria to address this

Some words about denitrification – IMO there is a lot of myths about this in the world of reef keeping.

By the first definition – it means the process there facultative anaerobic heterotroph use nitrate (nitrite, nitrite oxide or nitrous oxide can also be used) instead of oxygen as electron acceptor in the citric acid cycle (Krebs cycle). The process need a fast organic carbon source like methanol, ethanol, simple sugars or vinegar in order to serve as an electron donor in the same cycle.

Today we also incorporate the use of Sulphur substrate in order to have a type of anaerobic autotroph sulphur bacteria doing the same job – reduce NO3 to N2 gas and water – in the word denitrification

There is also a pathway there NO3 is dissimilatory changed to ammonia (it´s normally named DNRA (dissimilatory nitrate reduction to ammonium) and the final result is ammonia (NH4) – I will not name this as an denitrification because the final product is ammonia not nitrogen gas

A new discovered process (1999) that – to my knowledge – not are shown taking place in aquaria is the Anammox process – one of the most important processes in marine sediments. I think its also can happen in old DSB but it has not been shown yet, Basically it converts ammonia (NH4) to N2 gas with help of NO2 (nitrite)

For now back to the classic denitrification process and how I plan to manage it in my Aquarium

There is a lot of different saltwater denitrification equipment in Europe. Basically two different solutions.

1. Contain a sulphur substrate and relay on a type of anaerobic autotroph sulphur bacteria – no need of adding organic carbon

2. Containing different type of substrate and relay on adding a fast organic carbon source in some case – in some cases (Aqua Medic deniballs) – the carbon source is incorporated in the filter media (the same idea as in biopellets but run anaerobic)

The DSB can also be seen as a denitrification device but the normal passive DSB is a slow working unit. The water changes through it depends of the concentrations of different compounds in the water and in the bed – a type of “osmosis” or the systems quest for equilibrium. The lack of oxygen will be more and more as deep you go in the bed and different bacterial processes will create the necessary fast organic carbon compounds the anaerobic version of the Krebs cycle demand

A development of the classic DSB is Jaubert´s Monaco method there he basically ad a water compartment below the sand bed and therefore suspect that it will be a concentration based process of equilibrium between the two water compartment. Therefor it will be a slow motion of compounds and water through the bed

Paul.B:s slow deep under gravel filter addresses these thing and my version with reversed flow deep under gravel filter does the same. My idea is built on Jaubert´s Monaco method but I ad a reverse flow through it in order to speed up the system. In the beginning I was pumping all of my skimmate into the plenum in order to fast create a bacterial population capable of hydrolysis, just to create the necessary carbon source. I prefer to have the nitrification taking place in another part of the system and planning to develop some new ideas based on the REAL effect of the Zeolitfilters (I´m not sure they work as the inventors think – or as they say it works – but they works).

I also hope that my construction of the DSB will address some other issues like dosing carbon dioxide, phosphate and ammonia (maybe also some slow conversion of ammonium to nitrate) for my chaeto that’s growing in the water column above.

A third goal its to use it as an slow working calcium reactor with help of CO2 – but its in the future



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

Thanks for writing that up, good information!

 

[Lasse]

Thanks for writing that up, good information!

Thank you

Sincerely Lasse